JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR #66 $10.95
FALL 2015
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Character TM & © Jack Kirby Estate.
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Contents DOUBLE TAKES! OPENING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2 (double vision on Cap and Spidey) HEAD-TO-HEAD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5 (it’s Kirby, without words) GALLERY 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9 (seeing double?) KIRBY OBSCURA . . . . . . . . . . . . .22 (the claw!) JACK F.A.Q.s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .24 (the Curator Talk at the big CSUN Kirby Exhibit, with Mark Evanier) KIRBY KINETICS . . . . . . . . . . . . . .36 (Norris Burroughs on the Hulk at midnight) JACK KIRBY MUSEUM PAGE . . . .39 (visit & join www.kirbymuseum.org) INNERVIEW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .40 (a 1986 interview with Jack) DUAL DUEL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .55 (Ditko vs. Kirby on Spider-Man) INCIDENTAL ICONOGRAPHY . . . . .60 (taking command of the Boy Commandos) BOYDISMS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .62 (Jerry Boyd assembles an all-star line-up to weigh in on Kirby as writer) GLEN GOLD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .75 (more on Galactus’ origin) GALLERY 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .76 (ReWrite or ReWrong?) COLLECTOR COMMENTS . . . . . . .87 PARTING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .95 Front Cover inks: MIKE ROYER Front Cover color: TOM ZIUKO This issue dedicated to our pal Adam McGovern. Hang in there, buddy! If you’re viewing a Digital Edition of this publication,
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This issue’s cover art first saw publication on the envelope that held the four plates in Jack’s GODS Portfolio (above) in the early 1970s. Turns out there was an unused Thor page, still in pencil form in Jack’s files, which got used as a plate in the Marvelmania Portfolio. So Jack had Mike Royer ink it, altering it to turn Galactus into a more generic character, and completely eliminating a Thor figure that was lurking in the background. Joe Rubinstein did this fantastic inked version of the original pencils in 2007 for Ferran Delgado, and Ferran inked and added the erased Thor back in. Enjoy this double-take of two great inkers!
The Jack Kirby Collector, Vol. 22, No. 66, Fall 2015. Published as often as possible by and © TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. 919-449-0344. John Morrow, Editor/Publisher. Single issues: $14 postpaid ($18 elsewhere). Four-issue subscriptions: $45 US, $61 Canada, $66 elsewhere. Editorial package © TwoMorrows Publishing, a division of TwoMorrows Inc. All characters are trademarks of their respective companies. All artwork is © Jack Kirby Estate unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter is © the respective authors. First printing. PRINTED IN CHINA. ISSN 1932-6912
COPYRIGHTS: Captain Victory, Gin Seng, Gods character, Jupiter Plaque characters, Tribes Trilogy TM & © Jack Kirby Estate • Destroyer Duck TM & © Steve Gerber and Jack Kirby Estate • Ant Extract, Stuntman TM & © Simon and Kirby Estates • 2001: A Space Odyssey TM & © Warner Bros. • Richard Dragon TM & © Dennis O'Neil and Jim Berry • Justice Inc./The Avenger TM & © Street and Smith Publications • The Black Hole TM & ©Walt Disney Productions • Bruce Lee TM & © Bruce Lee Enterprises, LLC • Fly, Shield TM & © Archie Publications • Big Barda, Boy Commandos, Challengers of the Unknown, Darkseid, Deadman, Demon, Flash, Forever People, In The Days Of The Mob, Jimmy Olsen, Kamandi, Lex Luthor, Lightray, Losers, Mr. Miracle, New Gods, Newsboy Legion, Oberon, Orion, Sandman, Shilo Norman, Super Powers, Superman TM & © DC Comics • Avengers, Balder, Black Panther, Bucky, Cameleon, Captain America, Dr. Octopus, Ego, Enchantress, Eternals, Executioner, Fantastic Four, Galactus, Giant-Man, Goliath, Hawkeye, Hercules, Him, Hulk, Human Torch, Ikaris, Inhumans, Invisible Girl, Iron Man, Jack Kirby Crash Course, Ka-Zar, Kang, Loki, Mad Thinker, Man-Thing, Midnight Monster, Mole Man, Mr. Fantastic, Mr. Hyde, Nick Fury, Phoenix, Psycho-Man, Puppet Master, Quicksilver, Rawhide Kid, Recorder, Scarlet Witch, Scorpion, Shanna the She-Devil, Sif, Silver Surfer, Skrulls, Spider-Man, Sub-Mariner, Super-Adaptoid, Swordsman, Thing, Thor, Vulture, Wasp, Wizard, Wrecker, Yellow Claw, Zabu, Zeus TM & © Marvel Characters Inc.
Opening Shot
Double Vision
Kirby’s mid-’60s redesign for Captain America, and (below) the character’s starspangled origins.
by editor John Morrow
emember all the hubbub about “Marvel Prototypes,” which we covered as far back as TJKC #13 in 1996? For those that don’t, in the late-1950s/early-1960s pre-hero Marvel/Atlas comics, there were characters that some collectors (and more prominently, some opportunistic comics dealers) were passing off as directly linked to the later Magneto, Sandman, Electro, Iron Man, Watcher, and even Spider-Man. In reality, the connection was usually just their name—but those issues went for a higher price on the back issue market. While it was a fun game for well-meaning collectors and historians to track these down, I have no doubt that money was at the root of the trend—just as it’s been at the root of some efforts to rewrite history, and cause people to develop a case of “single vision” about creator credits. See, Jack Kirby had his own well-documented “prototypes” for many of the major Marvel characters, and those ties are much less tenuous than the ones in monster stories from Tales To Astonish and its ilk. Spidey, the FF, Thor, Hulk; there’re just too many coincidences to be coincidences. In all these instances, there appears to be a direct Kirby forebear of the characters we know and love today—and not in name only. Which doesn’t mean Stan Lee wasn’t Joe Simon’s original involved; quite the contrary. The fact that Jack Spiderman logo, which Jack had in his files. had an earlier version of each only confirms that Stan’s input was crucial to the success of the eventual end-product. But Stan hardly needs my help in getting the credit he deserves; the point I’m trying to make here is, these earlier versions help prove that Jack was an intricate part of the creation of these characters, and not just as a hired-hand, told exactly what to draw by a writer/ editor/publisher, after the act of creation was completed. First, some background: In the mid-1960s, Kirby signed a legal document, basically stating that he and Joe Simon worked in the Timely offices in the 1940s, developed Captain America in those offices as part of their daily work routine, and that he felt that everything he did then was Timely’s, to do with as they pleased. We’re not certain how Timely owner Martin Goodman got Jack to sign such a release (although Jack was persona non grata at DC at the time, so didn’t have many other avenues to earn an income), but it’s pretty evident that some of the statements made there weren’t based on facts as we know them today. In 1941, Joe Simon presented Captain America to Goodman, and negotiated a deal for a percentage of the profits on the character for he and Kirby—something Goodman would simply have never done for a couple of paid staffers
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(top left) Simon & Kirby’s “Fly” for Archie Comics, 1959, whose first arch nemesis was Spider Spry, which could’ve been a springboard for... oh, my head hurts. In a nice bit of irony, Ditko eventually drew Archie’s Fly in the 1980s (below).
Art © Steve Ditko.
who were creating characters as part of their job description. While Joe was the staff editor and Jack the art director during the era, they were also working freelance, and they clearly developed Captain America on their own time, outside of Timely. Goodman’s failure to live up to the profit deal was the reason Simon & Kirby left Timely for DC. That 1966 document was related to money, of course. Goodman was making in-roads towards selling Marvel, and wanted to secure documentation that would tie up any loose ends which might hurt a possible sale. Joe Simon was then striking fear into Marvel with the announcement of his impending line of superheroes at Harvey Comics (Joe’s successful track record was enough to give any publisher pause), and Jack—no doubt at Goodman’s request—developed a new costume for Captain America (as shown on the previous page), likely to be used if Simon decided to cause trouble over the ownership of Cap and kill a sale.
But Cap wasn’t Goodman’s only concern. It’s been documented that Jack was in possession of a “Spiderman” logo from the last days of his partnership with Joe Simon, so a character by that name existed in some form prior to Stan Lee’s involvement (albeit without a hyphen in its name). Jim Shooter is on record as having seen a Spiderman presentation drawing up at Marvel (different from the fabled rejected five-page story Jack did before Steve Ditko was involved). His recollection is that the character carried a “web-gun” and wore trunks and flapped boots like Captain America, and bore no similarity to Ditko’s later SpiderMan, in costume or in concept (there were margin notes describing some ideas for the character). Shooter’s description matches Ditko’s own visual remembrance of Jack’s character, as he first recounted in Robin Snyder’s History of Comics Vol. 1, #5 in 1990 (shown here). The pre-existence of this logo and presentation drawing always got conveniently omitted from the old Marvel party line, which stated: Stan Lee came up with the idea of Spider-Man, presented it to Kirby, who then drew a story which Stan rejected because Jack’s rendition was “too heroiclooking,” leading Stan to turn the job over to Steve Ditko, whose style was more in keeping with what Stan had in mind for his brainstorm. [Whew!] We now know that, while it wasn’t the version that we see today, Jack came to Stan first with the idea of a “Spiderman” before Stan ran in a different direction with the concept (and as you’ll see in Jean Depelley’s article this issue, it’s not as simple as saying Stan rejected Jack’s version, then turned it completely over to Ditko). But ask yourself: Jack was producing one great new series after another in the first half of the 1960s. Why would Stan think he’d have a dud with this one? What we deem a surefire flop now, might’ve been at least a modest hit, had it ever actually been published. (The Hulk initially bombed, and is huge—no pun intended—today). We look back fondly on Challengers of the Unknown due to the quality of Kirby’s work, even though that concept isn’t setting the comics world on fire now. You could even argue the real success of Challengers was Fantastic Four, since it is in many ways a prototype of the FF. But Challengers was a solid performer for a long time at DC, well after Kirby left it. That couldn’t have happened if, like Jack’s Spiderman, it never got to newsstands. Maybe, just maybe, “too heroic looking” wasn’t the real reason Jack’s Spiderman didn’t get used. 3
(top) Despite Stan Lee’s past assertion that they tossed Spidey into Amazing Fantasy #15 because they knew it was the final issue and had nothing to lose, the AF #15 letters page blurb and “next issue” announcement show otherwise. But a lastminute logo change aside (left), the character remained hyphen-less throughout his debut.
because he’s totally just a good friend who’s allowing them to use his stuff, and no one questions that Stark is never around for their meetings and is never in the same room as Iron Man.
Art Corrections Sometimes Stan Lee would request “art corrections.” Often these were done via a paste-up, where a piece of empty board would be glued over the original panel, and a new panel drawn over it. The two images below from Journey Into Mystery #88 (page 13) are one of the few rare before-and-after examples available, since removing the paste-up is technically a destructive process and may devalue the art. In the “before” panel you can clearly see Earth on the left and the Rainbow Bridge on the right. I guess Stan felt it wasn’t clear enough that they were leaving Earth? But in removing the Rainbow Bridge from this panel, it becomes a little confusing why he’s suddenly on a Rainbow Bridge in the panel that comes after. According to Nick Caputo and Nigel Kitching, this correction was made by Steve Ditko, as was the third image below, which is from Fantastic Four #20 (page 17). This is an example of what a paste-up looks like when it hasn’t been removed. You can see the board cut around the word balloon so that it didn’t have to be relettered. While we’re looking at this image, note the text to the right of the panel. This isn’t Jack Kirby’s handwriting, but rather Stan Lee’s. Later on Jack would start writing notes for Stan in the margins, but at this stage he apparently explained to Stan verbally what was happening on each page when handing the pages in. It’s theorized that it was during these meetings that Stan would quickly jot down these notes to himself, most of which are barely legible. Fortunately, this note is easy to make out (despite being cut off ), because Stan was jotting down a dialogue note. It says, “Our own weapons are now useless to us,” just like in the word balloon. Some might even speculate that Jack suggested this line to him during the meeting. The final image comes from the same page of Fantastic Four #20, but contains a different type of mystery. If you look very closely, you can make out the not-fully-erased faces of Reed and Ben below the word balloon, and Johnny to the far right. Thankfully, at this time Stan only seemed to request about one panel change per issue, being that time was tight. If a change was going to require more work than that, he seemed more than happy to just change the intent with creative use of captions and dialogue, which is what makes this article possible. However, when art corrections do pop up, it presents a number of mysteries. In the case of the final image, the mystery is whether Stan suggested a change before the art was inked, or whether Jack changed his mind and redrew the panel before ever showing it to Stan. In contrast, every paste-up I encounter presents a mystery of whether Stan used this particular art correction to change the intent of a sequence, or if, like the Journey Into Mystery example, he was just wasting everyone’s valuable time. ★ This is just the tip of the iceberg; for more great examples of Kirby Without Words, go to: http://kirbywithoutwords.tumblr.com/tagged/kirbywithoutwords/chrono Also of great interest to readers of this article (and of great help to its author) are the Baxter Building podcasts. Find out more at: http://www.waitwhatpodcast.com/baxter-building-ep-1-what-in-blazes-does-it-mean/ 8
Gallery 1 Commentary by Shane Foley
There are many examples of artists’ work being editorially altered for publication, and Kirby was no exception. Whether the changes were for better or worse was the editor’s subjective call. Here are some examples from Marvel in the ’60s of Kirby work being “fixed.” It seems many of the changes occurred late in the production process, with copies of the work having already been made before final editing, because most of the examples shown here come from Marvel itself using unaltered masters when issuing reprint material. Here are 15 examples, in roughly chronological order: Avengers #19 cover (Aug. 1965): I think this change is a good call—but it’s not because of a subjective feeling about a cover. It’s all about a design element that Kirby probably did which Stan or someone felt needed to be improved on. In the reprint of this issue in Essential Avengers #1, we see the Swordsman with really different, clunky headgear. I remember seeing this version in an Aussie reprint somewhere years ago and being mystified by it, since I knew these issues well in their original form. Could Don Heck have made Kirby’s helmet version work? Was it Lee or Heck who wanted a more straightforward hood? And look—he’s even smiling in the revised version, maybe to appear more like the mocking, swashbuckler type.
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Checklist of Kirby art on display: 2001: A Space Odyssey (Treasury) Page 45 & 64-65 spread 2001: A Space Odyssey #2 Pages 2-3 spread Big Barda and Her Female Furies Unpublished Mock-up Black Magic #16 Cover Black Panther #2 Page 26 Boy Commandos #3 Page 11 Captain America #211 Page 7 Captain America #212 Page 14 Darkseid Unpublished sketch Demon #6 Page 7 Demon #7 Page 21 Demon #14 Page 15 Devil Dinosaur #3 Unpublished pencil page Devil Dinosaur #4 Pages 2-3 spread Devil Dinosaur #5 Pages 2-3 spread Dream Machine 1975, ink and watercolor Eternals #9 Pages 2-3 spread Fantastic Four #51 Page 14 Fantastic Four #78 Pages 11-12 Fantastic Four #82 Pages 1-3, 8, and 11 Fantastic Four #94 Page 2 Forever People #7 Lonar backup, pages 1-2 (continued on page 32)
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Mark Evanier
Jack F.A.Q.s A column of Frequently Asked Questions about Kirby
The CSUN exhibit (“Comic Book Apocalypse: The Graphic World of Jack Kirby”) ran from August 24–October 10, 2015. Next issue, I’ll have a transcript of the panel discussion on Jack that was held on Sept. 26. And if you couldn’t get to CSUN, the Jack Kirby Museum is putting on another Kirby Pop-Up Exhibition in New York City beginning on Wednesday, November 11, running through Thanksgiving weekend, and ending on Sunday, November 29. If you’re on the East Coast during that time, go to www.kirbymuseum.org for details on attending!
known for television—for example, animated television series like Garfield. I know him from comic book work: Groo the Wanderer, DNAgents, Crossfire, a number of comics that he’s written over the years. Mark’s blogs and columns are a trove of information about television, comedy, voice acting, you name it. And, of course, comics. Mark has researched Jack’s life and work for many years and is working on a definitive biographical tome about Jack Kirby that we will see in the coming years. I asked Mark here today to share with us some thoughts about Kirby’s extraordinary life and work. So please join me in welcoming our guest, Mark Evanier. [applause]
Kirby Curator Talk Held at 10:00 a.m. on Monday, August 31, 2015 as part of the exhibit “Comic Book Apocalypse: The Graphic World of Jack Kirby” at the California State University, Northridge (CSUN) Art Galleries in Northridge, California, curated by Charles Hatfield. This talk was transcribed by Steven Tice, edited by John Morrow and copyedited by Mark Evanier. Photos and video provided by Kevin Shaw, and audio by Tom Kraft. Please note that some of the audience questions were unintelligible due to the recording acoustics in the room. CHARLES HATFIELD: [introducing Mark Evanier] Here’s his biography. He worked with Jack Kirby at a young age, and that’s been part of Mark’s career path. Mark is the author of a splendid book from about six years ago called Kirby: King of Comics. He’s also the editor of another splendid book that came out just last year called The Art of the Simon and Kirby Studio, which is the early days of Kirby’s career in the Forties and Fifties. You see some of it right here on this wall, for example. Mark’s a prolific writer for comics and for television and for various media and forms, but he’s particularly
MARK EVANIER: I feel like I’m in a little crummy karaoke bar right now. I’ll favor you with a few numbers later, okay? [laughter] I’m not the only person in this room who knew Jack Kirby. There are a number of people here I’ve recognized. You will notice these people because, as I talk about what a wonderful human being Jack was, those will be the people nodding their heads in agreement. I
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An ongoing examination of Kirby’s art and compositional skills
(below) After Jack angrily stormed out of a conference with Stan, he tore several rejected Hulk pages in half. Here’s one that Larry Lieber rescued. (bottom) “Hulk” from Journey Into Mystery #62 and #66: inspiration in name only.
when Kirby returned to Marvel in the late 1950s, he was usually working from scripts provided by Stan Lee or other writers. While being open to the notion that this occasionally happened, I think that this was the exception rather than the rule. Kirby insisted that he never worked from a script and that he always worked at home, conceiving and executing his stories and then coming into the Marvel office to deliver them to Lee. Evidence such as the rejected and torn pages that were crafted for an early issue of The Incredible Hulk suggest that this was usually the case. This Hulk story would have appeared as early as 1962. It was reported that the pages were taken from the trash after Kirby ripped them in half and stormed out of Stan Lee’s office. The pages in question have Lee’s notes written on them, as though the two were discussing the dialog before the communication broke down.
Of Midnight Monsters & Men t is a great relief to know that Disney/Marvel has finally settled with the Kirby family on the issue of creator or co-creator status of the various characters that the King had a hand in bringing forth. However, it still leaves us to speculate about how much input Kirby had in the creation of said characters. Many believe that
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Let us look specifically at the creation of The Hulk and decide who is the prime creator, Lee or Kirby. When examining the working relationship between the two men, it makes sense to consider the way in which Kirby habitually worked throughout his long career. He was essentially a writer/creator as well as a visual artist, and did these things as naturally as breathing. Often he would plot a story while drawing, and dialog it later, or in the case with most of the Marvel work, have Stan Lee dialog it later. Kim Aamodt, writer for Simon & Kirby studios in the 1950s, spoke of how prolific Kirby was in an interview conducted by Jim Amash that appeared in issue #30 of Alter Ego magazine: “I really sweated out plots, unlike Jack Kirby. Jack just ignited and came out with ideas. Joe Simon would just nod his head in agreement.” Stan Goldberg, artist and col36
Kirby was already bringing Lee nearly complete stories fairly early on, for the latter to dialog. This is not much more than a year after the Fantastic Four was first published. At that point, Kirby was still drawing the lead story in a series of monster comics. Such an example in the April 1962 issue of Journey Into Mystery #79 was entitled “The Midnight Monster” [left]. The main character in this story bears more than a passing resemblance to the Incredible Hulk, whose first issue appeared a few scant months later. Note in particular the similarity in the transformation scenes of the two comics, appearing on page five of the Hulk and page three of “The Midnight Monster,” where we see both scientists transforming into strange and frightening creatures. Kirby excels at this sort of thing, with his three-panel sequence from human to beast man in either comic. This was a period when monsters were very much the rage. I remember about this time I saw the 1961 Hammer film Curse of the Werewolf starring a very young Oliver Reed, and I was taken with the way Kirby was able to bring a similar gothic feel to his atmospheric stories. The Hulk was one of my first Kirby comics, and his way of staging the story became very much a part of my artistic education. The fact that Kirby was involved in two stories with such similar approaches within such a short time period speaks volumes. In a note written by Kirby that was used as evidence in the recent (and resolved) legal action between Disney/Marvel and the Kirby heirs, the King stated that he had created the Hulk, which was a spin-off of a single story that he did for Marvel. This story, “The Midnight Monster,” may very well be the one he refers to. The characters in
orist for Atlas and Marvel, also spoke to Amash about Kirby’s amazing creative abilities in Alter Ego #18, describing Kirby’s visits to the Marvel office: “Jack would just sit there at lunch and tell us all these great ideas about what he was going to do next. It was like ideas were bursting from every pore of his body. It was fascinating because he was a fountain of ideas.” When asked who did most of the creating, Goldberg stated, “I think it was Jack. But Stan was great at plotting, concepts and dialogue. Stan could direct me or Jack Kirby into thinking and developing, and Jack just ran with it.” When addressing the question of Lee presenting artists with full scripts, Goldberg replied, “I know Jack was getting full outlines even when they started doing the Fantastic Four. Whether they had talked the story out before, that is something I can’t be sure of.” The original art of Kirby’s mid-to-late Sixties stories has a profusion of margin notes, a clear indication that he was doing the lion’s share of the plotting at that point. It is the earlier period that is somewhat in question, but we still have evidence such as the torn Hulk pages to show that 37
Innerview
(right) Early Timely pulp illustration by Jack. (below) Baron Von Richthofen (better known as the Red Baron) stuck in Jack’s memory, even as late as Kamandi #22 (Oct. 1974),
1986 Kirby Interview
[Leonard Pitts, Jr., a commentator, journalist, and novelist, interviewed Jack Kirby circa 1986 for a book titled Conversations with the Comic Book Creators. A nationally syndicated columnist, Pitts was awarded a Pulitzer Prize for Commentary in 2004. Thanks to Leonard for allowing this interview to be presented here.] LEONARD PITTS: Let’s start with a little background—the “origin” of Jack Kirby. JACK KIRBY: I was born on the Lower East Side of New York. It was a restricted area in the sense that it was an ethnic area. And it was at a
time when the immigrants were still coming in and they settled in certain parts of New York City, among their own kind. We had blocks of Italians and blocks of Irish and blocks of Jews. I was born among the blocks of Jews. Strangely enough, our school curriculum was very good and our subject matter was very good. We had fine teachers. And so, despite the fact that we’d be running loose, just doing what we liked, like any other kids—playing stickball or baseball or boxing somewhere— we had a fine schooling. I had Shakespeare in the eighth grade. I had a really good history course. I can’t say I was great in math [laughter], but in a very strange sense, my schooling was very good—all through junior high and high school and elementary. Later on, I even went to industrial school, because I understood that they had drawing tables there and I wanted to practice drawing. PITTS: What years are we talking about? KIRBY: We’re talking about the middle ’30s. I was born in 1917. I’m a first world war baby and I was brought up with two wing airplanes… the Empire State Building wasn’t there yet, the Chrysler building wasn’t there when I was born, and Von Richthofen was the guy they were all talking about… flying aces and pulp magazines. The strange fact was that, on my block, we hadn’t even gotten to the pulp magazines. I found my first pulp magazine floating down the gutter on a rainy day toward the sewer and I picked it up because it had a strange looking object on it. It turned out to be a rocket ship. It was one of the first Hugo Gernsback Wonder Stories. I didn’t dare to be seen with it, so I 40
just picked it up and hid it under my arm, took it home and I began reading it and I learned to love science-fiction. PITTS: That was your first exposure to sci-fi? KIRBY: Yes. I wouldn’t say it was an intellectual explosion. I’m still bad in math. I’m a lousy electrician—I couldn’t fix a plug. But I am interested in the other side of knowledge, the cultural side of knowledge and the truthful side of knowledge. I’m looking for the gaps that I know exist, and of course, I’ll never get the answers, like everybody else. So I feel I live with very interesting questions. PITTS: It’s more fun living with the questions for you, I gather. KIRBY: Well, the questions are the things that make good stories, in my opinion. PITTS: Getting back to your early years, it must have been tough, coming up in an already poor neighborhood during the Depression. KIRBY: And I also made another mistake. PITTS: What was that? KIRBY: Being born short. PITTS: Why was that a mistake? KIRBY: On the East Side that was a mistake because, well, the big guys beat up on the little guys. But I made up for it, as much as I could, in meanness. And of course, that’s very stimulating. I was still being brought up on peasant stories; my mother came from Europe and she’d been a peasant and that was the area where the Frankensteins and the Draculas came from, and it was entertainment for the people. Nobody had TV, and that was the way peasants would entertain themselves—by telling these stories. PITTS: Was that your main form of entertainment? KIRBY: My main form of entertainment was the early movies, in which I could see Cagney, or Edward G. Robinson, or the Marx Brothers—all those old films, which I loved. My mother would have to come (above) It sure ain’t a beat-up Chevy! The Whiz Wagon from Jimmy Olsen #144 (Dec. 1971). get me out of the theatre after the seventh (below, second from right) Young Jack at the Boys Brotherhood Republic. performance. I like entertainment. I’m an innate admirer of good entertainment. I’ll listen to MTV, I’ll listen to Mozart, I’ll listen to anything that has a good element in it. You know as well as I do that any kind of music can be written badly and it can be written wonderfully. I admire a top performer in any field. I once drove a beat-up-Chevy, which was given to me by a garage man because he was fixing my car. And that beat-up Chevy was the best car I ever drove, because his son loved engines and he was an artist with an engine. There was nothing, absolutely, wrong with that car except a few dents. It was a joy driving that car, because whatever he did to that engine would transmit itself to the wheel and I could feel that, and I enjoyed it. That fella was an artist in his own right, and he didn’t have to play a note on a flute. An artist, to me, is someone—a professional—who does his work well. PITTS: There was not a lot of money rolling around your neighborhood, so I 41