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PRESENTS P A R T T W O OF ITS A LL -S T A R LO O K AT TH E KI RB Y I N F LU E N C E !

HMM... #2 8, APR IL 2000!

Issue #28 Contents An Inference of Influence ...................2 (Mike Gartland’s investigative series looks at Stan Lee’s influence on Jack) Jeremy Kirby Interview.......................6 Tracy Kirby Interview .......................10 (Jack & Roz’s grandkids speak out about their upcoming Kirby-related projects) Agatha Harkness, Pickman’s Model ...14 (was Jack influenced by Lovecraft?) Where Are They Now? .....................1 8 (old Kirby monsters never die...) Crest vs. the Cavity Creeps ................2 1 The Thin Black Line .........................2 2 (a look at the career of Vince Colletta) The King in the Peninsula ................3 1 (Kirby influenced the Italians) An Interview with Andréas ..............3 2 (the French artist discusses Kirby) Kirby Swipes.....................................37 John Kricfalusi on Kirby ...................3 8 (Ren & Stimpy’s creator speaks) Centerfold: Dingbats #1....................4 0 The Kirby Version.............................4 3 (Kirby’s TV and film influences) Mark Hamill Interviewed .................5 1 Moebius Interview ...........................5 4 My Kirby Story.................................5 7 Gary Gianni & Geof Darrow ............5 8 “When Cap Throws His Mighty Shield” ...6 0 (did he influence the Frisbee, too?) Karl Kesel Interview .........................6 2 One Man Art Class ...........................6 6 Mike Allred Interview ......................6 8 Kirby Homage Gallery......................7 0 (fans and pros give it their best shot) Classifieds.........................................7 8 Collector Comments.........................7 9

ISSUE #28, APR. 2000

THE ONLY ’ ZINE AUTHORIZED BY THE KIRBY ESTATE

Cover inks: Mike Allred Cover color: Laura Allred Photocopies of Jack’s uninked pencils from published comics are reproduced here courtesy of the Kirby Estate, which has our thanks for their continued support. COPYRIGHTS: Agatha Harkness, Alicia, Avengers, Balder, Black Bolt, Blip, Captain America, Crystal, Diablo, Dr. Doom, Dr. Strange, Enchanters, Falcon, Fandral, Fantastic Four, Fin Fang Foom, Galactus, Ghost Rider, Giant-Man, Goom, Groot, Hela, Him, Hogun, Hulk, Human Torch, Invisible Girl, Iron Man, IT, Loki, Machine Man, Magneto, Mary Jane Watson, Mogul, Mole Man, Mr. Fantastic, Odin, Peter Parker, Prester John, Puppet Master, Red Skull, She-Hulk, Sif, Silver Surfer, Taboo, Thing, Thor, Torr, Valkyrie, Volstagg, Wasp, X-Men, Xemnu TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. • Beautiful Dreamer, Big Barda, Boy Commandos, Clark Kent, Darkseid, Demon, Desaad, Dingbats of Danger Street, Female Furies, Gasser, Guardian, Jimmy Olsen, Kamandi, Lightray, Mr. Mxyzptlk, Newsboy Legion, OMAC, Orion, Sandman & Sandy, Superboy, Superman TM & © DC Comics. • Oblivia © Big Bang Comics. • Fighting Yank © AC Comics. • Janus/Gemini © Ruby-Spears Productions. • It! Girl and the Atomics © Mike Allred. • Hellboy © Mike Mignola. • Corpus Monstrum © Gary Gianni. • Rat-Man, Cosmicus © Leo Ortolani. • Conan © Robert E. Howard Estate. • Prince Valiant, Flash Gordon © King Features. • Ripping Friends © John Kricfalusi & Spumco, Inc. • Ren & Stimpy © Nickelodeon. • The Prisoner © ITV. • Star Trek and all associated characters © Paramount. • Star Wars, Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, and all associated characters are TM & © Lucasfilm, Ltd. • Creature from the Black Lagoon TM & © Universal Studios. • Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles TM & © Kevin Eastman & Peter Laird. • Cavity Creeps © Crest. • “Musings” art, Capt. Victory, Dark Domain, Egghead, Goozlebobber, Klavus, Satan’s Six, Silver Star © Jack Kirby Estate.

Jack’s cover pencils for Marvel Two-In-One #12, featuring Prester John, one of many Kirby characters later reused by others. The Jack Kirby Collector, Vol. 7, No. 28, Apr. 2000. Published bi-monthly by & © TwoMorrows Publishing, 1812 Park Drive, Raleigh, NC 27605, USA. 919-833-8092. John Morrow, Editor. Pamela Morrow, Asst. Editor. Jon B. Cooke, Assoc. Editor. Single issues: $5.95 ($7.00 Canada, $9.00 elsewhere). Six-issue subscriptions: $24.00 US, $32.00 Canada and Mexico, $44.00 outside North America. First printing. All characters are trademarks of their respective companies. All artwork is © Jack Kirby unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter is © the respective authors. PRINTED IN CANADA.

A Failure To Communicate Interlude: An Inference of Influence, by Mike Gartland hile others write about Kirby’s influence in this issue, I’d like to Stan became the first to re-introduce a new generation to the works of discuss some of the contributions of the one professional who Simon & Kirby, Carl Burgos, and especially Bill Everett. influenced Kirby in a myriad of ways, and quite arguably brought The Hulk, Thor, and Spider-Man were the next triumvirate that him towards his greatest recognition: Stan Lee. Kirby came to co-develop when Stan asked Jack for ideas. As with the Well, think about it; although Stan may not have been an influence Thing, Stan most likely asked for a character like the Hulk. In earlier to Jack in the artistic or storytelling sense, his effect on Kirby’s work at pre-hero Marvel stories, every now and then a monster would make a Marvel, for good or bad, is present in virtually every issue of every title re-appearance, perhaps in response to fans or positive sales. Based on Jack worked on. The majority of the effects were obviously good, as reflected in the love we share for their combined work. Although many throughout fandom speculate that Jack was the concept or “ideas” man behind the “House of Ideas,” it must be noted, however true, that Stan was the one asking for those concepts and ideas, especially during those critical early years. Stan is therefore rightly recognized as the father of the Marvel Universe, being a seminal influence behind not only Jack, but all areas of production. Stan was a creative midwife, periodically provoking Jack to bear down and push. This is not to say that Stan didn’t have ideas of his own, but one of his strengths was knowing how to utilize the creative talents of others. Stan’s input into the creation of Marvel’s earliest and most famous characters should not be disputed. When Goodman wanted to start up a super-hero line again, he went to Lee and Lee went to Kirby—not anyone else at Marvel— to come up with a book. Many cite the similarities between the FF and Jack’s Challengers and use this hypothesis to say that most of the idea for the FF came from Jack, but Lee’s influence is obvious from the two most colorful characters, the Torch and the Thing. It’s a pretty safe bet to assume that Stan would want a monster-like character, in keeping with the then-popular line of monster-related books that they were putting out. The inclusion of the Torch was definitely Lee’s input; it was all Jack could do to keep Stan from bringing back other Golden Age heroes for that book, and convince him to go with new characters. Stan still showed his love of the old guard by reviving the Sub-Mariner, and giving the “new” Torch his own title as soon as he could. Bringing back old characters was not to Stan’s detriment; if not for him, we of the Baby Boomers would never have enjoyed the likes of the Torch, Namor, or ironically Cap. Jack, being progressively creative, almost certainly wouldn’t have gone into the past and saved these great characters. Thanks to Stan reviving him, Captain America is more popular and recognized today than he ever would’ve been had he remained buried among the WWII relics. Also thanks to his A good catch (and a little venting of frustration) by Stan on this FF #90 page. His notes to Sol Brodsky about the reprinting of Golden Age stories early on,

way Jack drew Alicia’s eyes: “Fix Alicia’s pupils. Sol—She’s blind! If only J.K. were consistent.”

Page 14 pencils from Thor #144. It appears Jack came up with the somewhat out-of-character subplot of Balder being secretly in love with Sif. Stan went along with it for that issue, but wisely never followed up on it.

this, Stan may have wanted to try a series with the same monster in the lead; but maybe it came too late. The Hulk was pretty obvious as far as a monster tie-in was concerned, and maybe this was one of the reasons that initially, he didn’t succeed. There were a lot of monster stories already ingested by Marvel readers and, compared to books like FF and Thor, the Hulk was just another monster, not super-hero, book. Thor was discussed previously; Jack’s love of mythology fed this title for years, with Stan’s humanistic take on gods giving it the vitality to keep going. Ironically it is Spider-Man, Jack’s failed concept, that becomes Stan’s magnum opus and Marvel’s greatest success. Spider-Man, more than any other character, is a testament to the control that Stan had in the develop3

ment of Marvel’s heroes. Stan may not have developed these characters artistically, but he knew what he wanted, and none of them would exist as they do today if not for his influence and input. And no, I didn’t forget Ant-Man, but he also was discussed in a previous issue; I also didn’t forget that one should never mention the development of Spider-Man without acknowledging the immense input and talent of Steve Ditko. (As an interesting footnote, the rejected Spider-Man origin, where a kid finds an object that gives him his powers, may have been re-vamped and used in the origin for Thor, showing how close in time these two characters were being developed by Jack & Stan.) You would not have seen FF #12 or Spider-Man #1 as they exist today if not for Stan. Well, so what, you ask? The same could be said for any Marvel issue at that time. What I’m trying to point out here is not only Stan’s influence on the finished product, but the initialization of cross-marketing the characters between titles. This laid down the basis for a definitive point of reference between the characters’ individual plots in their own titles, interwoven occasionally with the other books, backed up with references in current books to previously published “back issue” stories; thus establishing a “timeline” that all of the super-hero books followed. All of this is known today as “continuity.” Stan established it, it tied the Marvel Universe together, it was wonderful, and boy, does the current Marvel ever need it today. Stan was able to maintain all of this continuity because he not only plotted and wrote some of the various stories, but was editor as well. Unlike DC’s method of several editors to oversee their titles, Stan was the sole editor for anything produced at Marvel. He was able to stay on top of the expanse of titles due to his acceptance of the “Marvel method” of writing, whereby the artist became a collaborator in the development of the story. This method of writing was established when Kirby returned to

Jack jotted this down on the back of one of his statted pages from FF #46. Was it a note taken during a phone plotting session with Stan, or Jack’s own idea for a subplot?

Jeremy Kirby Interview Conducted by John Morrow

TJKC: Did he let you watch him draw? JEREMY: Oh yeah, all the time—and he’d let me use some of the big animation boards to draw my horrible, horrible take-offs of Star Wars. (laughter) TJKC: So it didn’t bother him having you run all around the room? JEREMY: Not at all. I think sometimes it was a welcome break. Other times he just didn’t let it bother him.

(Roz and Jack Kirby’s grandson Jeremy was born in 1978 in Thousand Oaks, CA. The youngest child of Jack’s son Neal, Jeremy is now 21 years old, and ready to further the family name with a number of projects in the works. The latest one is a new Captain Victory mini-series, due out in July of this year. Our thanks to Jeremy for taking time out for this interview, which was conducted by phone on February 6, 2000.)

TJKC: As a kid, what kind of stuff did you do for fun with your grandparents? THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: JEREMY: There was a What’s your earliest memory big lake called Westlake, of your grandfather? and they’d take me JEREMY KIRBY: Going over to down to the duck pond. the house, and seeing him on We’d feed the ducks, the drawing board. I Grandpa Jack babysitting a very young Jeremy and Tracy. and that was their big would’ve been about two (below) The infamous Goozlebobber! thing. I think it was years old. He used to pretty easy to do, and it’d keep me busy for hours. We’d baby-sit me when I was really young. We lived very close to them; about five miles away. also do a lot of swimming in the pool; my grandma more TJKC: Your dad, Neal, published a lot of your grandfather’s work in the early 1970s, than my grandpa, but he’d go in every once in a while. under the Communicators Unlimited imprint. Do you know anything about that? TJKC: Didn’t they have a dog at one point? JEREMY: I remember a lot of that stuff around the house; maybe the Kirby Unleashed JEREMY: Back in the early 1980s they had Scruffy. He book. I also think that for a while, he was representing my grandfather’s properties. was this ugly little thing, (laughter) but he was the nicest TJKC: Did your dad talk dog. The name pretty much summed him up. (laughter) that much about comics? I think they found him somewhere, or Lisa might’ve Did he tell any membrought him home; I can’t remember. orable stories about TJKC: While you were a kid, did fans stop by the house? your grandpa? JEREMY: Oh yeah. It was funny for me; he was just my JEREMY: He’d grandpa, and all these peowould always ple wanted to see somebring up the subone I got to see on a ject of Jack. He was regular basis. They’d probably the most stop by, and aware of the Kirby toward my children about what my later years, grandpa did. A lot of his stories were of his very bad I was surdriving; (laughter) he’d try to drive, but would always prised at be thinking about something else. I believe once he how they let all rear-ended a police squad car. (laughter) these strangers There were some nice stories. Once, it was my grandin the house. father’s brother’s son’s bar mitzvah or something. Everyone else was inside partying, eating, and drinking. This was on the Lower East Side of New York. A homeless man walked by, and my grandfather invited him in, and had him party with everyone else—eat, drink, and be merry. TJKC: Did you spend a lot of time with Jack and Roz? JEREMY: Oh yeah, definitely. I used to go up to the Ruby-Spears building a lot with my grandma and grandpa when I was visiting. They had a cool video game in the lobby that’d I’d always play while my grandpa was in there. My grandma would usually stay with me in the waiting area there while he would go in. He was never in there more than an hour—or it seemed like it, anyway. TJKC: When you’d go over to the house, was Jack usually drawing all the time? JEREMY: Yeah, a lot. All through the afternoon, and after I’d go to sleep. I’d wake up in the middle of the night and look across to his studio from the other side of the house. You could see him with his back facing the window, just drawing at the board. TJKC: Was he working on animation stuff at that time? JEREMY: Yeah, that and I think some of the Pacific Comics stuff. 6

TJKC: As a kid, did you read comics at all? JEREMY: My favorite comics when I was young—and about the only ones I really read—were Sergio Aragonés’ Groo books, and some of the Captain Americas, reprints of the Airboy stuff, as well as Captain Victory.

JEREMY: Yeah. Because he was always up so late, my grandfather used to sleep until about eleven o’clock. My grandma would have me wake him up at eleven. When I was younger and he was sleeping, I’d run as fast as I could into the bedroom and just jump! (laughter) He’d be all startled, but for the next half hour he’d sit me down and start telling me stories of the Goozlebobbers. They were taking over the world, and we’d hide under the covers: “There goes one now, running past the window!”

TJKC: But you weren’t a fanatical comics readers? JEREMY: No, no. I liked the ideas of everything and the imagination that went into them, but I wasn’t that into reading most of them. I had a few I liked, and that was about it.

TJKC: So, first thing in the morning, he was firing away with stories? JEREMY: Yeah, first thing—he dreamed about them or something—and sometimes that would go on for an hour. He had a better imagination than I did, and I was five years old. (laughter) That was almost an inside thing in a way. It was something to do to keep me busy. It almost seemed as if he liked playing “make believe” more than I did.

TJKC: In Captain Victory #4-6, there was that very odd Goozlebobber in the backup stories. There’s a kid named Jeremy in there, and the prevailing wisdom is that Jack based the character on you. Is that true?

TJKC: How did the Goozlebobber actually show up on the comics page? JEREMY: I’m not sure. Maybe he thought, “Wow, Jeremy seems to like it. Let’s see if it’ll work here.” TJKC: Did he tell you he was doing it? JEREMY: My grandma told me later. I didn’t really read the issues until later on. That’s when my grandma said he had drawn me into it. I didn’t know that until years later, when I was maybe ten. TJKC: There was another kid in that story. Was he based on anyone? JEREMY: It could’ve been, but I’m not sure. He probably just made it up. TJKC: Did he ever do any drawings to help you with school projects? JEREMY: Not really, only because I wasn’t as good at school as my sister. He drew some pictures for her book reports. When I was younger, he’d come into my preschool class, and draw pictures for the entire class. Right in the middle of class, the teachers would let him come in, and he’d start drawing. It was on the big animation boards. I don’t know if anyone still has them, or if he gave them to the school, but that’s what he’d do to entertain the whole class. TJKC: Did you ask him to do that? JEREMY: I think it was more my grandma’s idea. It was the religious preschool, so everyone knew who he was. I think they just asked him to come down. He’d have me go up there sometimes and draw in front of everyone, but my artistic abilities aren’t quite what his were. (laughter) TJKC: As you were growing up, did your friends know who your grandfather was? JEREMY: A lot of them did. It meant more to them that he was this big comic book creator than it did to me; to me he was just Grandpa. When I moved up north to central California, I had a friend who was a big comic book fan, and it took him years to get over that my grandpa was Jack Kirby.

Pencils from Captain Victory #3, page 20.

Where Are They Now? A Look At The Kirby Monsters, by Madison Carter t’s one thing for a character designed to star in a comic book to become popular. It’s one thing for a guest star in such a comic book to become popular. It’s an entirely different situation when a strange monster, featured in some 8-page tale in one of many anthologies, becomes popular enough to warrant more appearances, even after 30+ years. The Kirby Monsters were never designed to be more than one-shot creatures. They were there for Jack to tell his tale, and then to sink back into whatever black galaxy spawned them. However, with such massive popularity for anything Kirby running on all cylinders, it was inevitable that his fans, many of whom have become comics writers and artists as well, would want to delve back into the strange worlds that brought them into comics in the first place. For most of the time after their initial appearances, most of the Kirby Monsters were relegated to reprints in various books (Fantasy Masterpieces, Where Monsters Dwell, etc.). In the mid-’70s, that changed. With the overwhelming demand for new monster books, Marvel looked to its past for help.

Walter Simonson cover from Thor #379, paying homage to Kirby’s original Fin Fang Foom.

IT, The Living Colossus

After Ka-Zar’s run in Astonishing Tales, Marvel replaced him with a very different type of hero: IT, The Living Colossus. IT had appeared in a couple of stories during the pre-hero days as the man-made pawn of aliens bent on world domination. Now with total control of the giant gray statue, wheelchair-bound Bob O’Bryan uses IT to fight alien invaders (including the Stonus Five Gargoyles, one of which, Gorgolla, made an appearance in the Kirby Monster stories of yesteryear) and mad scientists. While only spanning four issues, IT’s tale is important for a couple of reasons. First, it is still the only time a pre-hero Marvel Kirby Monster headlined his (its?) own title. Second, it brought back another classic Kirby Monster who would go on to eclipse all other Kirby Monsters in popularity: Fin Fang Foom. Before we get to him, though, it must be said that IT made one more appearance, in Incredible Hulk #244, where the stone giant was crushed into dust by the Hulk.

Fin Fang Foom Despite a name that brings more snickers than awe, Fin Fang Foom would rise above the other Kirby Monsters to be featured in more comics than any other. After his first one-shot appearance and the reprints, Foom finally re-emerged in the aforementioned Astonishing Tales, #23 to be exact. Aiding the Colossus in his battle against the Gargoyles, Foom proved himself to be useful material in the Marvel Universe. He would next appear ten years later... sort of. In Thor #379, a creature who looks like Foom (he even has Foom’s original gold skin) and calls himself Foom appears to test the Norse god. Wonderfully presented by Walt Simonson and John Buscema, this Foom is a funny creature, polite in his evilness (“Now little one, turn and stare into the face of death! For I am Fin Fang Foom and the son of Odin will learn to his eternal regret—OH! I beg your pardon! I fear that I mistook you for someone else. The red cape, you know.”) However, it turns out to be a charade, as this creature is actually the Midgard Serpent in disguise. The real Foom wouldn’t appear again until he was called upon by the Mandarin in Iron Man #261. This, perhaps his most important non-Kirby tale, would stretch off and on until #275, as writer John Byrne

(above) Double-page splash from Astonishing Tales #24 (June 1974), featuring Fin Fang Foom vs. IT; story by Tony Isabella, art by Ayers, Lieber, and Colletta. (left) John Romita Jr./Bob Wiacek take a stab at Fin Fang Foom in Iron Man #275. (right) How the mighty have fallen; Hulk pounds IT to smithereens in Hulk #244, with art by Carmine Infantino and Mike Esposito.

Xemnu reappears on the cover of Defenders #12, Feb. 1974. He’d previously battled the Defenders in Marvel Feature #3.

replaced the mysticism in his origin, making Foom one of many Foom-like alien dragons. This, in my opinion, destroys the uniqueness of Foom, making him just one of countless similar creatures. Also; Foom looks very little like his previous appearances, but even the variation taken on his appearance here was acceptable compared to his next appearance, in the limited series Legion of Night. Looking nothing like the Foom we know and love, this horned(!) dragon is used to bring forth demons and such to overrun Earth by breeding with a human female. Fin Fang Foom wouldn’t return to prominence again in the regular Marvel Universe for a few years. In the meantime, Hollywood came calling. In the rush to compete with the Batman and X-Men cartoons, the Iron Man cartoon was born. Although I can’t say for sure whether Foom did actually appear in the short-lived series, as I never had the chance to watch it, he did make an appearance in the comic adaptation (Marvel Action Hour: Iron Man), as well as having a figure in the Iron Man toy line that tied in with the cartoon! More recently, he came out of obscurity again to battle Iron Man once more in Iron Man Vol. 3, #1617 (plus a cameo in #18). Gone were the space dragons and demon rituals, replaced with a story more akin to the true Fin Fang Foom. So far, this has been his last appearance, but with him possibly in the captivity of one of Iron Man’s foes, expect him to surface again soon. On a side note, IT, Foom, and the next creature were all active enough in the Marvel Universe to warrant entries in various editions of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

Xemnu The Titan The original Hulk—Xemnu—resides in a special place in Marvel history, as he is the first of the Kirby anthology monsters to crossover into the “real” Marvel Universe, battling super-heroes. His first such conflict was against the Defenders in Marvel Feature #3. In this and his two subsequent schemes (Defenders #12, Hulk Annual #5), he was defeated more or less by the Hulk. Next up, he battled the Thing and Wonder Man in Marvel Two-In-One #78 before languishing in obscurity for years—before John Byrne destroyed any integrity the snowy behemoth had left in several issues of the comedic Sensational She-Hulk (#6-7 and #42-43). Byrne, who once handled Kirbyesque monsters wonderfully (Gormuu from Fantastic Four #271, anyone?) resorted to treating Xemnu as a joke, as he did most else in the She-Hulk title, including another Kirby Monster. 19

(above) Xemnu’s original Kirby appearance from Journey Into Mystery #62 (Nov. 1960). (below) Byrne yuks it up with Xemnu in She-Hulk #7 (Nov. 1989).

The Thin Black Line A rough and scratchy defense of Vince Colletta by Robert L. Bryant Jr. e swooped in to save comics publishers on deadline hundreds of times. He trashed the work of artists he should have worshiped. He was loved. He was hated. If he had been a character in a Marvel comic, the cover would have screamed, “The MYSTERY of VINCE COLLETTA! HERO or VILLAIN? YOU DECIDE!” This is the paradox of the late Vince Colletta. He was Jack Kirby’s frequent collaborator during the ten most amazingly fruitful years of Kirby’s career, the early 1960s to the early 1970s. Fantastic Four, Thor, New Gods, Mister Miracle, Forever People— all passed

under Colletta’s fine-tipped pen, which he preferred to the traditional inkers’ brush. Yet many, perhaps most, Kirby fans revile Colletta’s work, and comics histories either ignore him (Duin and Richardson’s Comics Between the Panels) or dismiss him (“Ignored most of the line work of the pencilers he worked over,” says Jones and Jacobs’ The Comic Book Heroes). “He’s become a favorite whipping boy.... The fan attitude toward Vince Colletta has totally crossed the line,” says comics writer and editor Tony Isabella, who became friends with Colletta in the 1970s. “Half the time, they’re not discussing the work, they’re discussing the man personally—and they don’t have the information to do that. They didn’t walk in his shoes.” Colletta was a product of the comics system, the New York assembly line that printed both gems and junk with once-amonth efficiency, says Mark Evanier, who was a Kirby assistant in the 1970s and who helped kick Colletta off Kirby’s Fourth World books. Colletta made everything look “average,” Evanier says, whether he was inking Grade A art or Grade D art. “He delivered a consistent product to editors, and they kept hiring him.” Over and over, for three decades: Jerry Bails’ Who’s Who of American Comic Books lists at least 50 titles that Colletta worked on for Charlton, at least 90 for the DC line, and nearly 100 for Marvel/Timely/Atlas. Colletta was a classic “utility player,” Isabella says— always pinch-hitting, jumping into books that were about to miss dead-

(right) Splash page from the “Tales of Asgard” story in Journey Into Mystery #125, showing Colletta’s ability to capture an antiquated feel.

line. “You weren’t going to get the best inking in the world from Vince,” Isabella says. “He did take shortcuts. I can’t defend individual bad jobs.... He never had the financial opportunity to do great art. Nobody ever said to Vince, ‘We want this really good.’ They said, ‘We want this Tuesday.’ ” “Vince was very valuable to editors,” Isabella says. “When these jobs were coming in late... Vince would turn them around quickly. Vince pulled a lot of butts out of the fire.” (Isabella wasn’t referring to Kirby, who never met a deadline he couldn’t beat, but to other books late for other reasons—usually, Isabella says, because of their writers.) Isabella was about 21 and working as a Marvel editorial assistant when he met Colletta in 1972. Colletta, already whitehaired, was about a generation older than Isabella— one of Kirby’s contemporaries, give or take a few years. “He was like this Italian uncle,” Isabella says. “He was always real decent to me.” Evanier remembers Colletta as a slim and handsome man of Italian descent (Sicilian, according to Bails), with a background in romance comics and a long list of friends in the industry, always meeting and greeting, “like a charming insurance salesman,” always juggling non-comics jobs, including photography for men’s magazines; and he was a fast inker—very fast— fast enough, in the early ’70s, to ink the 15 pages a week that Kirby was penciling for DC, plus inking a load of other books such as DC’s Lois Lane, Evanier says. The Colletta secret: He used assistants, and traded quality for volume; and, he must have thought, why the hell not? Colletta wasn’t being paid well by comics publishers, Evanier notes— really, no one was.

Page 2 pencils from Thor #144. Throughout this article, we’re showing Kirby’s pencils from that issue alongside Colletta’s inks, so readers can see what he’d change when inking a typical issue. Note the missing background items in the panel 2 inks shown on the previous page.

Photo © Lombard

summation of all his qualities, but as a symbiosis. The narration in his books depends on both the intricate events of the script and the abstract symbols in his art, resulting in a unique reading. Andréas is therefore a true author, maybe one of the few totally honest in the comics’ field nowadays, who is only doing what he wants, with complete freedom over his work. In America, Dark Horse has published Andréas’ Rork series (5 graphic novels to this date) and his Coutoo one-shot. This interview was conducted by phone in French on July 5th, 1999. Andréas submitted the final copyedit. We wish to thank Lise Louvet (Edition Lombard), Franck Bouysse for the recording and, of course, Andréas for having given us so much time and kindness.)

An Interview With Andréas By Jean Depelley and Etienne Barillier (Andréas is a unique comic book artist in Europe. Born in 1951 in East Germany, he first studied Art in Dusseldorf and at the Belgian Saint-Luc Institute. After a collaboration with Eddy Paape (co-author of the excellent Luc Orient and Marc Dacier series, as well as artist on several Jean Valhardi books) on the horrific one-shot Udolpho (1980), his first solo book as an artist, Révélations Posthumes, came out the same year with a script by François Rivière. His artistic talents have caught the readers’ interest since the publication of the Rork series (seven books between 1983 and 1993) in the Tintin weekly, to finally explode within the pages of the two Cromwell Stone graphic novels (1984 and 1994). His dynamic storytelling is always on the move, in a constant search of weird shots and abstraction. With Cyrrus (1984), Mil (1987), and Triangle Rouge (1995), he has proved a subtle writer, giving his readers food for thought. Andréas is currently working on two series: Capricorne (Edition Lombard, four books) and Arq (Edition Delcourt, three books). Still, Andréas’ talent cannot be perceived only as the

THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: In the forth volume of the Capricorne series (Le Cube Numerique), the amnesiac Capricorne is wondering what his real name is. Is he Jacob Kurtzberg or Jack Curtiss? Why this reference to Jack Kirby? ANDRÉAS: This is because I like Jack Kirby! That is to say, I think that Will Eisner and Jack Kirby are the American comic books’ founders, in the two possible directions that I see. I have always liked Will Eisner’s Spirit too. Every name on this first page is Jack Kirby’s or Will Eisner’s pseudonym or real name. I have always been attracted to Kirby’s art. I have read a lot of things—nearly everything published by DC, when he was beginning his New Gods series—but I couldn’t keep those books because something annoyed me in a way. When TJKC came out and began publishing pencils, I was really astounded. I realized the inking bothered me then. Those pencils are absolutely extraordinary! I really think that 40% of Kirby’s work is lost with the inks.

(above) An interpretation of reality from Rork #7. (top) Low Valley’s moving epitaph from Rork #7. Both © Lombard.

TJKC: However, Mike Royer is a very good and very faithful inker ANDRÉAS: Yes, but the art is decreased even if Kirby is inking over his pencils. Most of the strength is in the pencils, because the blacks are there and the lines can be seen.

There is much more life than when it is inked, when it’s very clean, very clear. The contrasts may be too strong with the inking. Well, at least for me! Anyway, when I saw those pencils, I finally understood what caught me in Kirby: His expression of movement, of power; his emphasis on picture and expression with approximate anatomies, weird hands and faces. It’s not a problem because it works perfectly in Kirby’s context. TJKC: What is drawing you to comics? ANDRÉAS: I am attracted to doing comics for two different reasons. The one that first appealed to me was the adventure, the story. I like to follow a character as you do in a TV series; the passion of the average reader, the desire to know what will occur next. The other reason is that I like to do complicated things, things that are hard to do. I’d like to find new ways to tell a story, ways to tell different stories. TJKC: Do you consider yourself as a Kirby heir? ANDRÉAS: No, I don’t think so. Kirby set the rules of a field that later influenced me— but it was not Kirby directly. I have felt a lot more influenced by him recently when I saw his pencils. He went beyond the technique to become himself. This is certainly something that I’d like to do. I’d surely like to take the same road that he inwardly took and that he expressed on a page. That’s the goal of every artist. I’d like to simplify, to be more straightforward. Sometimes, I wonder if all those details, all those little things in every corner, those perspectives, aren’t the real me. I don’t know. It’s a kind of search. TJKC: Do you long for recognition as an artist with your elaborate style? ANDRÉAS: No, that’s something different. What really interests me is showing the distance between art and reality. As a matter of fact, reality is impossible to represent in comics. I don’t want the reader to forget that it’s art, because he’s reading a fiction. In Révélations Posthumes, I worked a lot with photographs. Now everything must be built in my mind. I prefer using my imagination and the least documentation I can. TJKC: What were your first American Andréas was kind enough to ink this Kirby piece we ran way back in TJKC #16, with spectacular results! influences? TJKC: Your books look like mosaics as far as script and art are concerned. ANDRÉAS: There were Bernie Wrightson, Barry Windsor-Smith. Do you consider yourself as a “baroque” artist? TJKC: People from The Studio? ANDRÉAS: No, not really. Baroque, I don’t know; I have no use for the ANDRÉAS: I was less touched by Kaluta or Jones, although I like Jones word. Apparently, both art and script emerge from the same corner of very much. Barry Windsor-Smith did influence me, but he came from my brain. I’m dragged along. It seems that I can’t tell a story straightKirby. Who are the other artists I like? Neal Adams; I have always line, from A to Z without mixing the letters in-between. When I finish admired his art, with his diving angles. I took those things from Adams. reading a graphic novel, the fact is I usually get it all, read it all. I know I have always been astounded by his way to show new angles that had that I won’t read it anymore, because everything was told, explained not been drawn before. And Alex Toth; he is an artist I admire deeply, and shown. In fact, it bothers me. When I read, I wouldn’t like to because he has such a level of simplicity and directness, which is someunderstand the book straight off. I’d like to be forced to re-read, to see thing that I can’t do. I also like Gil Kane for his very strong Tarzan my own limits. The problem is that you can’t—or it’s very difficult strip. Speaking of Tarzan, Kubert did for me the best Tarzan ever. It’s to—build stories that cast your own limits. The result will necessarily so elegant, very simple, direct; even better than Hogarth and Foster. remain within my own limits as I write the stories. The best thing of all 33

John Kricfalusi on Kirby

Interviewed by Chris Twomey (At first glance Jack Kirby and Ren & Stimpy creator John Kricfalusi may not seem to have much in common, but both artists have been major stylistic influences in their respective fields, and both had control of their most famous creations taken away from them. The Kirby influence in Kricfalusi’s work may not be too obvious either, but like any kid of the 1960s who read a comic on a Summer’s day, John was bound to be electrified by Kirby’s archetypal super-hero books at the magazine stand or on television. For as crude as the Marvel Super-Heroes cartoon was, the power of Kirby’s dynamic art taken from the adventures of Thor, The Hulk, or Captain America’s conflict with the Red Skull’s Sleepers, could not but capture the imagination of a generation. Even today Kirby’s legacy can still be seen in super-hero animation, merging with Kricfalusi’s retro look in the recent Hercules and Xena’s The Battle For Mount Olympus animated movie. I interviewed fellow Canadian John Kricfalusi twice in 1993 as Ren & Stimpy swept our nation, a year after he was fired from the show. Still he animatedly told me about his influences from TV, film, cartoons, and of course, comics. John was a Kirby and Marvel fan, and hinted at his super-hero homage to come, the Ripping Friends. These costumed, over-muscled, yet super-powerless “heroes” will be appearing as part of the Fall Fox Kids lineup on the Fox Network. Kricfalusi’s super-hero satire will be more like Not Brand Echh than New Gods, but Happy-happy, joy-joy; it’s Ren & Stimpy! will be remembering Jack through a love of characters (Stimpy’s the one on the left.) and futuristic technology.) JOHN KRICFALUSI: When I was a little kid I loved all the funny animal comics. I loved Harvey Comics with Casper The Friendly Ghost and all that stuff—the Hanna-Barbera comics, the Disney comics, the Warner Brothers comics—but in junior high I got addicted to Marvel comics, particularly the Jack Kirby stuff. I loved Fantastic Four. Kirby was an absolutely great storyteller. I don’t mean that the stories were deep or even intelligent. (laughs) It was just that if there was a scene that was supposed to be set, he staged it beautifully. He staged it like a film director. You really felt it. You believed it. If he did a scene of horseplay, like when The Thing and the Human Torch would get into their little fights, it was played with great comedy. He could do any emotion. I mean, the guy pioneered all these genres in comics too: The romance comics, which he staged totally differently than the super-hero stuff, which he staged totally differently than the monster stuff. I’ve never seen a more versatile comic artist in the whole history of comics— and within the same comic he would play different emotions, just by staging them. Forget what the story was. If you just analyzed the story without the picture, the logic of the stories and everything was ridiculous—just completely stupid. The stories would never make it in novels. They are stupid. I’m just talking about the storytelling which is a different thing than the story writing. Kirby was very dramatic.

A drawing of Kricfalusi’s latest creation, the Ripping Friends, which has just been added to the Fox Kids TV lineup.

Kirby character sheet of Mr. Mxyzptlk for the Super Friends animated series.

TJKC: Did you like Thor? KRICFALUSI: No. I never liked Thor because I hated the inking. I loved the drawings but the inking was so crude it just made it hard for me to read them. TJKC: There was great panels in Thor. KRICFALUSI: Oh yeah, there was some great drawings in it, but I always thought the inking really butchered it; but I’d read the Fantastic Four which had Joe Sinnott inking them and I thought he was great on Kirby. To me a comic book’s got to look great before I’ll read it. It always makes me really mad when people introduce themselves to me as, “Hey, I write comic books. I’m a comic book writer.” What the hell kind of a...? Get a real job. What do you mean you’re a comic book writer? What it means is that you don’t draw well enough to draw comic books—because that’s what you read comic books for, for the drawings. It’s a weird concept—

comic book writer. It’s not something you should brag about. The main thing was that Kirby drew huge, muscular, cool-looking super-heroes. That had really cool powers and looked really dynamic. The number one thing about Kirby was that he was dynamic. Everything was ten times stronger and bigger than anybody else’s stuff. Then on top of that he was just really good. He’s a really skilled artist, even beyond his caricature. I’ve seen some of his early drawings, just sketches from the War and stuff—from the battle front. They are just really good anatomy, good perspective, good solid drawing to begin with; but then he didn’t stick to that. He turned to making his own statement.

DC. Then the super-hero comics started to get really serious and that was the death of them for me. I’m sorry. but I cannot take guys who run around in their underwear seriously. At least when Stan Lee was doing it, he wrote jokes in them. They had cameos of he and Kirby in them, and they didn’t take themselves seriously. They knew it was ridiculous. They knew that the idea of super-heroes was completely ridiculous; but when I go into a comic book store today I am embarrassed. I see these super-serious covers—and everybody is always screaming in the comics, and they act as if this stuff can really happen. Like you can have these huge, muscular, tiny-headed vigilantes running around in long underwear. How the hell can you take that seriously? And yet all the comic artists today, and the writers and the fans, they think this stuff is real or something. I can’t go along with that. Give me Jack Kirby’s caricatures any day. Do you remember Not Brand Ecch comics in the ’60s? They were Mad comics put out by Marvel that made fun of their own work. They made fun of all the super-heroes—DC super-heroes and Charlton super-heroes and Marvel super-heroes—and Kirby must have done a couple stories. He did a take-off on the Fantastic Four’s epic story with the Silver Surfer; and that is what I liked about the guy—he made fun of himself. He didn’t take himself seriously; and he drew great cartoony drawings of all the super-heroes—it was really nice. I’ve still got that. Powdered Toast Man in Ren & Stimpy was poking fun at the idea of

TJKC: You hinted that he established the clichés of the super-hero genre, which is all male and power-oriented. How do you see it looking back with ’90s politically-correct eyes? KRICFALUSI: Actually, if you look at Fantastic Four, it was one of the first ones to also portray a woman’s point of view. They had really strong characters like Sue Storm, Ben Grimm’s blind girlfriend Alicia, and Johnny Storm’s girlfriend Crystal. I was in love with her. They did a lot of stories from the women’s point of view. Of course it was a man doing stories from a woman’s point of view. So it was the best you could do until women started drawing the comics. I guess [the comic strip] Cathy is all we’ve got. TJKC: What about the aspect of violence being presented as entertainment for boys? KRICFALUSI: I wouldn’t call it violent. There was never any blood in it; never any bones sticking through flesh like you see in comics nowadays—which to me is just there totally for shock value, because they can’t draw well enough to get any real emotion out of you. You’ve got to use shock value to carry it. What they used to do with super-heroes wasn’t violent. Nobody took it seriously. They were like cartoons, they were caricatures. They’d beat the crap out of each other and stuff, then get up and walk away. It was fantasy, totally fantasy; so I wouldn’t even call it violence, especially compared to what comics are today. Now you can get away with anything in a comic book, except for good drawing—fifth-generation Neal Adams-imitators like John Byrne, who’s also Canadian; everybody copies John Byrne.

TJKC: When did you stop reading comic books? KRICFALUSI: When Jack Kirby went to

TJKC: So are your super-heroes going to be self-conscious in any of these ways? KRICFALUSI: My super-heroes are funny first of all. You are not going to take them seriously, in the least. It totally makes fun of the whole concept of being a vigilante running around in your underwear. It’s gonna point out how stupid all that stuff really is. It’s going to be a big message to comic book fans: “Hey, let’s get f*cking real about this stuff.” Grow up. You’re a thirty-sixty-year-old man and you’re reading comic books and you’re taking them seriously. Stop it. People ask me all the time these days which comic books I read, which astounds me! And I have to tell them: “I’m a thirty-seven-year-old man; I’m sorry, but I don’t read comic books.”

Kirby character design for the villain Gemini (originally called Janus) from the Thundarr The Barbarian series.

Mike Allred Interview Conducted by John Modica at the 1999 WonderCon in Oakland, California on April 17, 1999

d. lre Al e ik M

and I remember we went to this secondhand store that had stacks of used comics. With a grease pencil, they wrote “5¢” on each of them. They had FF #1 for a nickel—and we didn’t have a nickel! (laughter) We ran home, and by the time we got back, it was gone. To this day, my older brother kicks himself again and again for not asking the shop to hold onto it for him. As far as reading and enjoying them growing up, for me it was always Dick Ayers or Joe Sinnott on inks. Of course, the Ayers stuff would have to have been reprints. They did it for me; I just didn’t know who they were until years later. My mission at this convention is to pick up as many of Kirby’s monster comics as possible, preferably in as ratty condition as possible so I can just devour them, and have them with me all the time. It’s funny; as a kid, you don’t get it. You don’t realize just how great it is until later, when you’re doing it yourself, with hindsight, and just relating it to other work. The work Jack Kirby did was phenomenal. As a kid, I loved when the Fantastic Four ran into the Inhumans. Black Bolt looked so cool, and that he never said anything was so intense.

(Mike Allred burst upon the comics scene in 1992 with his character Madman, and in relatively few issues, became one of the shining lights of the current comics scene. Aided by the inspired coloring of his wife Laura, he delivered a much-needed spark of fun and creativity with his Madman series, and is currently launching his own comics line, AAA Pop, featuring his new book The Atomics. Mike was kind enough to offer to ink a cover for TJKC, specifically requesting something featuring the Fantastic Four. The result is this issue’s wraparound cover, featuring color by Laura. Our thanks to both of them for their exceptional work, and for taking time out for this interview.)

(top left) “It! Girl” from Mike’s new series The Atomics.

THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: Very simply; how did Jack Kirby influence you? MIKE ALLRED: Well, it’s not simple. In retrospect, I realize he’s been with me my whole life. When I was a kid, my dad always bought my big brother Lee and me comics, and my brother had amazing taste. If we were at a drug store or on a family trip, I tended to buy Hot Stuff or some Harvey thing, and my older brother would always buy really great stuff, which I found out years later would be Jack Kirby comics, and I eventually gravitated to my big brother’s far superior tastes. So I became a big Fantastic Four fan when I was a kid, and to this day it’s probably my favorite series of all time—the work that Jack did. TJKC: Do you recall a specific issue? MIKE: Yeah, I definitely remember a later Inhumans issue, #82 I think. Pretty sure that was my first exposure to Kirby and the FF. Love that cover! But I also remember one tragic event. My older brother was probably about twelve at the time, 68

TJKC: When inking this issue’s cover, were you trying to capture the feel of the 1960s FF you love so much? MIKE: You bet! I was trying to channel Joe Sinnott as best I could. Thanks to TJKC, I’ve been able to see so much work in its penciled form before Joe gave it that special slickness he was so great at.

I guess what I’m saying is, as a kid, it was just there. It was taken for granted, because it was just part of our world, or our childhood. Growing up in Roseburg, Oregon, the neighborhood kids read comic books; we didn’t know when the books shipped, so we sporadically got them, and it was joyful when we had them. As an adult, it’s become this love affair, and this crash-course education over the past 10-15 years for me, to find everything that he had done, and who he’d worked with, and what collaborations worked best, and which weren’t as successful. But everything he did is so significant and so powerful and so inspiring. The only other artist who rivals him as an inspiration for me is Alex Toth. For me, Kirby is the King of Comics, and I’ll fight anybody who says he isn’t. Thinking on it, I would have to say it was with New Gods, when I was starting to read that I realized it was a man named Jack Kirby who was drawing all this stuff I loved so much that was always there. TJKC: What’s the most memorable aspect of Kirby’s work? MIKE: His ability to combine naturalism with explosive action. He mastered the full spectrum of dramatic storytelling. I get just as excited about the way he did folds and wrinkles in the clothes of a businessman walking down the street, as I do of somebody getting propelled across space by an intergalactic event. For me, there was just this magic in everything. I even love and appreciate the simpler things he did. I really love the quiet moments. For me, it always goes back to the Fantastic Four, because they were a family unit. They’d read their fan mail. (laughter) They all had problems with their love life and self-image. Ben got harassed by the Yancy Street Gang; I can relate to that. (laughter) (above) Mike Allred’s cover for the July issue (#2) of the newest TwoMorrows magazine, Comicology, paying homage to Kirby’s cover to X-Men #1 (below).

TJKC: Your wife Laura did an amazing job coloring the piece. Any comments on her approach? MIKE: Magic! Laura, like me, loves that bold flat-color graphic look. She then gave it that ironic “Liechtenstein Big Dot” effect for an extra punch. TJKC: How would you say Kirby influenced your work on Madman, and your new series The Atomics? MIKE: With Madman it would have been on a subconscious level. Since I rediscovered comics as an adult in the late ’80s, countless influences were flying at me as I was trying to discover and hone my own style. After absorbing decades of comic book history and all its masters, I’ve finally become confident enough in what’s unique about my work to consciously utilize outside inspirations, and with The Atomics, Kirby is definitely, unapologetically, enthusiastically the single greatest outside influence. In fact, without his stunning example—39 pages in one month?!— I wouldn’t have even considered attempting a monthly schedule.★

Jack Kirby Collector #28