Carmine Infantino: Penciler Publisher Provocateur by TwoMorrows Publishing

CARMINE Penciler

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Publisher Provocateur l l

by by Jim Amash with with Eric Eric Nolen-Weathington Nolen-Weathington

C A PRE NM I N E I N FA N T I N O CILER PUBLISHER PROVOCATEUR l

Interviews • Jim Amash Transcription • Brian K. Morris Editing • Jim Amash and Eric Nolen-Weathington Publication Design • Eric Nolen-Weathington Cover Pencils • Carmine Infantino Cover Inks • Terry Austin Cover Color • Tom Ziuko Introduction • Roy Thomas Published by TwoMorrows Publishing 10407 Bedfordtown Dr. Raleigh, North Carolina 27614 www.twomorrows.com • e-mail: twomorrow@aol.com No part of this book may be reproduced in any form without written permission from the publisher. First Printing • August 2010 All rights reserved Printed in Canada Softcover ISBN: 978-1-60549-025-0 Hardcover ISBN: 978-1-60549-026-7 Trademarks & Copyrights

All illustrations contained herein are copyrighted by their respective copyright holders and are reproduced for historical reference and research purposes. All characters featured on cover are ™ and © DC Comics. All rights reserved. DC Comics does not endorse or confirm the accuracy, or the views expressed in, this book. Editorial package ©2010 Jim Amash, Eric Nolen-Weathington, and TwoMorrows Publishing.

Dedication To my wife, Heidi, and to Keif Simon and Terry Austin. — Jim Special Thanks This book would not have been possible without the help and cooperation of the following people, and we give them our most sincere thanks: Heritage Auctions (www.ha.com)

and: Alter Ego, David Armstrong, Terry Austin, Bob Bailey, Mike W. Barr, The Batcave Companion, Rod Beck, Tom Bradley, Michael Browning, Mike Costa, Ray Cuthbert, Irwin Donenfeld, Mike Dunne, Foundation’s Edge, Frank Giella, Joe Giella, Tony Gleeson, Arnie Grieves, Jeff Harnett, The Jack Kirby Collector, Mike Jackson, Alex Johnson, Nick Katradis, Joe Kubert, Gary Land, Emmanuel Lapuente, Rob Ledford, Jim Ludwig, Dr. Jeff McLaughlin, Joe and Nadia Mannarino, Peter Meskin, Jim Murtaugh, Ken Quattro, Pat Sekowsky, Jim Simon, Joe Simon, Keif Simon, Mark Sinnott, Anthony Snyder (www.anthonysnyder.com), Roy Thomas, Jim Vadeboncoeur Jr., Dr. Michael “Doc V.” Vassallo, Hames Ware, Bob Wiacek

Table of Contents Introduction by Roy Thomas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 Chapter One: Education Comes First . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 Chapter Two: Making the Rounds . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 Chapter Three: Settling in with DC . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 Chapter Four: Lightning Strikes Again . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 58 Chapter Five: Life Ain’t Easy at the Top . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 103 Chapter Six: Back to the Drawing Board . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 132 Art Gallery . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 157

FLASH, REVERSE-FLASH ™ AND © DC COMICS.

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(below) Chester Gould created the Dick Tracy newspaper strip in 1931, just a few years after Carmine was born. This strip, which ran March 1, 1934, is from around the time Carmine would have first started reading and copying Gould’s work. Gould’s style hadn’t quite evolved to the classic Dick Tracy look yet, but he was getting close.

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Education Comes First JIM AMASH: You were born May 24, 1925, a few years before the Great Depression started. What was the neighborhood that you grew up in Brooklyn like? CARMINE INFANTINO: I lived in a mostly Jewish neighborhood, one or two black families, some Irish... it was a very poor neighborhood, but clean. I remember we had a trolley car going around in the middle of the street. We lived near a cross-section. There was a playground for kids on the corner called Central Avenue which had gates on one corner. One of the boys I grew up with went to the [electric] chair. There was a pool parlor across the street where we used to hang out as kids, and that’s where I met some of those tough guys. I remember they were quite honorable, but you didn’t cross them. [laughter] I knew many of them quite well. One guy, I was the godfather of one of his children, all of whom went to jail, I think. We weren’t tight friends; we just knew each other casually. I had no real close friends there, because I went to school and started meeting guys like Frank Giacoia and other guys interested in art and cartooning. My neighbors did not have the same interests as I. I must have been about seven or eight years old when I started drawing. Dick Tracy was my favorite character. One time I copied him from one of the strips and my father didn’t believe I didn’t trace him. My uncle berated him for that. My uncle was Mexican and was married to my mother’s younger sister. We lived in a four-story walk-up tenement, and on the third floor, my mother, father, my brother and I had three rooms with a bathroom in the hall. My aunt and

uncle had the other three rooms in the back with their bathroom in the hall. And we paid the enormous sum — it was a cold water flat, you know — of $18 a month, which many months my father couldn’t afford. It was my grandfather’s house. He was a real jerk, my mother’s father. He’d demand the rent sometimes knowing we didn’t have it; it was terrible. This was the early 1930s. I worked as a shoeshine boy at five or six years old, and when I was twelve I worked for my uncle in a food store, carrying orders to people up and down the stairs, to help the family income. We had an oblong kitchen — quite small. There was a sink in there, but no place for a shower. There was no such thing as a shower. You’d have to sit in the sink and bathe yourself. I remember my father getting up in the morning, putting coal in the stove to get the place warmed up, because you’re freezing. It was not fun. We had a dining room and a bedroom. My brother Jimmy and I slept in the dining room. There was a dining room table and a foldaway bed. My folks had the bedroom. It was very wide open. My aunt had the largest apartment down there. She had five children. One boy died at 16, and that was very sad. In those days, Jim, they’d keep the body in the living room... open caskets. Very bizarre. JA: Did you play any sports? CI: I played baseball a little bit. Highland Park was nearby. We used to walk up there, over a mile, to play. One of the guys was Phil Rizzuto. He was wonderful; a hard-assed little guy, but

nobody thought he’d make it because he was so small. But he came from that neighborhood. He was very good, and the range he had as a shortstop was incredible. But I was not that good. Most of the guys weren’t that good, but Rizzuto became a star shortstop for the New York Yankees. Highland Park was where the scouts saw him play. Baseball was the only sport I played. I didn’t like any other sports. I preferred first base. I was a New York Giants fan in Brooklyn. Figure that one out. I don’t know why. As a kid, I was a fan of Carl Hubbell and Mel Ott. A couple of times my father took me to see the Dodgers at Ebbets Field, and the guys that hung around with me were pissed as hell. But I was a little kid, you know? I’d be screaming, “Kill him! Kill him! Kill him, Carl!” And the guys in the stands wanted to kill me. One guy says to my father, “What’s wrong with your son?” My father says, “What can I do? He’s that way.” [laughter] Isn’t that cute? We went to a couple of games, not that many; we couldn’t afford it. But in those days, hey, you’d get in for 15 cents or a quarter. JA: I think a quarter would get you in the bleachers back then. CI: My father would pay for that, then he’d tip the guy a dime and we’d get the top seats, but not the top seats in the first row there. I remember Carl Furillo, Carl Erskine... all the Dodgers and Giants players. I saw Jackie Robinson; he was incredible to watch. He was genius. He’d go up and down that baseline, back and forth; he drove the pitchers nuts. He got them so crazy that they didn’t know what to do with the ball. And he was fast, I mean fast! You’ve got to be to steal home plate. Even though I hated the Dodgers... I hated them because I was a Giants fan, but I had to respect Robinson. JA: Tell me about your parents. CI: My father was a musician. He taught himself to play the alto sax, the clarinet, and the violin. Do you remember Harry Warren? My father was fronting his band; they were friends. Warren wrote the song “Chattanooga Choo-Choo,” as well as music for some Judy Garland films, and The Lullaby of Broadway, the famous stage play. But it was a really bad depression, and in those days you had to go to the five-and-ten and play your music all the time, all hours of the night and day. My mother didn’t like that. She didn’t want to be home alone. She made him stop playing music and he began working on houses, which he hated. How do I know that? Because as a kid, I used to go to work with him and help him. It was terrible, cleaning toilets and all that crap. Anyway, it bothered him all his life. Some

days, my father would sit by a window and play a mournful tune on the saxophone. I’d just sit and listen to him, not knowing how bad things were. It was so sad. That man never complained, but his heart was broken. And then I went out shining shoes to make some money. JA: What happened when you got interested in art? CI: One of my uncles came over when he heard that I wanted to be an artist, and he told my father, “What are you, crazy? All these guys end up painting houses.” He tried to talk my father out of it. That’s one uncle. The other uncle — Harry, the Mexican uncle I mentioned earlier — encouraged me and told my father, “Leave him alone. Let him do whatever he wants.” The other guy who kept telling me to paint houses, his own son ended up in advertising. [laughs] Isn’t that wild? My father didn’t talk much, but he was trying to discourage me from going ahead with this. And I said, “I want to draw. I’m going to the School of Industrial Arts on 42nd Street.” I didn’t care what anyone thought. I was going — period! They couldn’t stop me. That was the end of it. My mother said, “Get a city job. You’ll make a living for life and you won’t have to worry.” Could you imagine me in that? [Jim laughs] Thirty-five dollars a week in those days. Well, that’s how people thought then. They thought you should get something steady where you work steady.

(above) Harry Warren (right) and Al Dubin (left) were collaborators in the 1930s and wrote music for such films as 42nd Street, Gold Diggers of 1933, and Moulin Rouge (all of which were made in 1933). Warren — born Salvatore Antonio Guaragna — was the son of Italian immigrants, as was Carmine’s father, Pasquale Infantino. It couldn’t have been easy for Pasquale to give up being a professional musician, but then to see Warren — his friend and someone with whom he shared a common background — sign on with Warner Brothers in 1932 and become a huge success in Hollywood must have filled him with regret.

JA: Did your mother work? CI: Yes. She used to make pants in a factory, so I didn’t see her much. She lived with my grandmother a lot. But the good part of that, she always spoke Italian, and I learned to speak Italian. 7

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(below) Meet the Flash! An all-new Flash sped onto the scene in the pages of Showcase #4. This opening splash page was a play on one of Carmine’s cover sketches for the book, and showed off a sleek, new speedster. FLASH ™ AND © DC COMICS.

Lightning Strikes Again JA: How did you find out that there was going to be a new Flash? CI: One day I was delivering a job, and Julie says, “Carmine, we’re going start doing superheroes again.” I said, “Aw, no!” I didn’t want to do them. I figured it’s old hat all over again. And he said to me, “No, no, you don’t understand. We’re going to do the Flash, but we’re going to do a new version of the Flash.” Bob Kanigher sat in on that meeting, and said the same thing: it was to be different, exciting, blah, blah, blah. Julie said, “We’re changing everything about him. I’d like to see some sketches from you for the Flash.” Later, Kanigher was over at my apartment

and saw the Flash sketches I had done. He liked them. My Flash costume was designed to emphasize the fact that he was a runner. The old costume didn’t really do that; it wasn’t as skintight as mine. I added the lightning accents to the costume for identification and because I knew I could do something with them when I drew the Flash running. JA: How often did Kanigher come to your house? CI: Oh, quite a bit. He used to stop by every couple of weeks. He’d stop in, we’d talk, kid around. I lived about six, seven blocks away from DC. He loved to talk. When he wasn’t in the office, he was a different guy. He could be fun. We never talked business though, isn’t that strange? JA: Had a script been written when you had this meeting with Julie and Kanigher? CI: I don’t believe so, not yet. Julie said, “When you come in next week, Bob said we’ll have a script ready.” And Julie added, “Bring some sketches in for covers.” I said okay, but by the time I’d come in, Bob has his own cover sketch, and that’s the one they took. JA: Kanigher gave you the idea for the film strip cover [Showcase #4]. CI: Yeah, it was his idea. I did three different rough versions of that cover, but they were all variations of the same idea. One of them was of the Flash running towards the reader, breaking through a page. Another had Barry Allen in the background, with the costume coming out of the ring. And the third had the film strip, which, of course, we used. But it was really Kanigher’s basic idea, and

that’s the one that Julie wanted. It was a good idea, and as it turned out it’s a classic cover. JA: Do you think Julie picked you to be the artist because you were his “number one” artist or were you picked because you had been the last artist to draw the Golden Age Flash? CI: I don’t know. I never thought about having been the last Flash artist or whether or not that influenced Julie’s decision to have me draw the new Flash. JA: Julie also chose the last “Hawkman” artist — Joe Kubert — to do the new “Hawkman” series. He couldn’t use the last “Green Lantern” artists — Alex Toth and Irwin Hasen — to revive that character, because they were no longer working for DC. CI: That’s right. I’m sure all of that entered into Julie’s thinking. And he put Mike Sekowsky on the Justice League because most of the original “JSA” artists were either not at DC or too busy on other books. I’m glad I didn’t have to draw the Justice League. That was a busy book! I was busy enough with Julie’s other titles. JA: When you’re going to draw the new Flash, because you had been the artist of the old Flash, you’re not the same person, you’re not the same artist any more. CI: I didn’t feel that way in the way you phrased it. I didn’t even think of it that way. I don’t think they did either... I don’t know.

didn’t accomplish that, we weren’t going to accomplish anything. There wasn’t much real movement in the old Flash. He was a little stupid-looking with that hat. JA: So what did you do to create more movement? CI: Well, I used multiple figures. I tilted the Flash’s body when he ran. Don’t forget, when a

(above) Barry Allen discovers he has superspeed when a falling plate of food seemingly freezes in mid-air before his eyes. From Showcase #4. Written by Bob Kanigher, with inks by Joe Kubert. FLASH ™ AND © DC COMICS.

JA: But you knew that you were different, that your work was changing. CI: I knew that I was different. JA: When you were thinking about, “How am I going to draw him running?” thinking about what Mort Meskin did with “Johnny Quick,” thinking about what you had done on the Golden Age “Flash”... what were your thoughts? CI: My immediate thought is, “Think animation here, think animation.” That was my basic thought. How could I get more movement? I didn’t want it to look like the old Flash, and neither did anyone else. That was the key, and my basic aim was “get movement here.” If we

(above) This panel from the final page of Showcase #8 was the first instance of Carmine using multiple images of the new Flash to depict his speed. (left) Wide horizontal panels helped Carmine give the Flash a sense of movement.

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FLASH ™ AND © DC COMICS.

(left) One of the odder strips Carmine worked on was “Super-Chief,” written by Gardner Fox. This splash panel is from All-Star Western #119 (June-July 1961), the final issue of the title. COURTESY OF TERRY AUSTIN.

SUPER-CHIEF ™ AND © DC COMICS.

(right) After penciling their debut in All-Star Western #58, Carmine drew nearly half of the “Trigger Twins” features. More often than not he was inked by Joe Giella (or Sy Barry), but he was able to ink several of the strips himself, such as this one from All-Star Western #105 (Feb.-Mar. 1959). COURTESY OF TERRY AUSTIN.

TRIGGER TWINS ™ AND © DC COMICS.

(facing page) Carmine may not have enjoyed doing them, but he drew quite a few war stories in the mid- to late ’50s. This splash page is from Star Spangled War Stories #64 (Dec. 1957), written by Ed Herron and inked by Robert Stuart. COURTESY OF BOB BAILEY.

(above) With issue #175 of The Flash (Dec. 1967), Carmine’s race was over — at least until the ’80s when he came back to pencil the title. COURTESY OF HERITAGE AUCTIONS (WWW.HA.COM).

FLASH, SUPERMAN ™ AND © DC COMICS.

What that guy did for your father, no one would ever do for him, and no money in the world can repay him.” “Well,” he says, “you know what a pain he is.” I said, “A pain? Your father would have been in jail.” Then he said, “Well, let me think about it.” Finally, he acquiesced, and then I heard he called Herbie in and said, “You’re going. When do you want to go?” “Next week.” “Okay.” So Irwin sends his chauffeur to pick up Herbie. He was supposed to pick him up at nine o’clock in the morning and take him to the airport. So he shows in front of the door. Herbie used to live right down the block from DC on 46th Street. And he’s sitting there, waiting and waiting there, and Herbie’s not showing up. So he rung the bell — no answer. He goes upstairs, knocks on the door — nothing. The door wasn’t locked, so he

walked in. Herbie’s sitting on the couch. He had died. Isn’t that something? He had his ticket in his hand and just died. JA: Do you have any idea how much they paid Herbie Siegel for doing nothing? CI: No, it wasn’t that much, though. Once in a while, Liebowitz would send him out on errands and other menial jobs. JA: How was it that everybody knew about Herbie Siegel? How does a story like that get around? You knew about him before you were ever in Editorial. CI: Oh, I’d see Herbie roaming the halls there. I asked somebody, maybe Eddie Herron, “Who is this guy? What does he do here?” Herbie didn’t talk to anybody. He had an office next to Liebowitz’s. But he sat there some days and slept. JA: Why do you think Irwin didn’t want to spend the money for Herbie’s vacation? Was he just being cheap? CI: I don’t know, maybe he was getting on his nerves or something. But Herbie took care of the old man when he was sick, too. When the old man was bedridden, he fell out of bed a couple times. Herbie would pick him up and put him back in bed. Maybe he reminded Irwin of the past and he didn’t want to be reminded of it. It’s very possible.

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Life Ain’t Easy at the Top

JA: Let’s talk about your stint as the cover editor. CI: That was a challenge, because I was working for Julie and now I’m not working for Julie any more. All the editors were told I was given an office by Liebowitz — the one where the writers used to congregate. Irwin told the editors that I was laying out all the covers. It was quite a challenge, 30, 40 covers a month there. I was not the art director. It was working out very nicely, and then one day Irwin had a big fight with management, and also Kinney Corporation had taken over the company. Jack Liebowitz sold the company all of a sudden. A couple of nights before, I was working. I see these guys coming in and out, in and out. Then one of them decides, “Carmine, go home. We’re busy here.” I said, “Okay.” I left, and that’s when they were working on the final arrangements. But there was a piece in the paper, “Kinney Buys Batman?” Bob Kane had ownership in it, and he came in with his lawyer.

JA: Did you ever have a discussion with Bill about that? CI: Bill was very unhappy about what they did to him. But he also wrote the original Green Lantern... he created a lot of things, from supporting characters to villains and got no thanks for any of it. JA: But he was never in a position, or possessed the type of personality to try to do anything about it. CI: He couldn’t! Bob Kane owned it, and they promised Bill the world. “Oh, we’ll take care of

(below) Carmine laid out this cover, penciled and inked by Irv Novick, for Batman #210 (Mar. 1969). The published cover (done from the same layout) was drawn by Neal Adams.

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JA: When DC was sold to Kinney, what was Bob Kane’s deal? CI: He owned a piece of the character. Then when it appeared in the newspapers that DC was selling to Kinney, Kane went in with his lawyer. He said, “I’ll stop the sale,” until he settled something. So Liebowitz played hardball, too. He says, “You get a million bucks, $50,000 a year for 20 years. That’s it.” Kane also had a contract that allowed for him to draw so many pages a month, but, as you know, it was really Shelly Moldoff who drew most of them. When Kane sold his stake in Batman, we were out from under that contract, and I got rid of him. And everybody was happy that Bob Kane was gone. JA: And Irv Novick started drawing Batman. CI: Right, Novick and Neal Adams, Bob Brown, and Jim Aparo [on Brave and the Bold]. JA: And Frank Robbins. But I understand that Bob Kane still had some kind of percentage deal, even after the sale. CI: I never knew what that deal was, but yes, he obviously had something going. But look at poor Bill Finger. He never gave Bill a nickel. 103

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(facing page) During the time Carmine worked for Warren, he had a slew of great artists ink his work, among them Walt Simonson, as shown with this page from Creepy #85 (Jan. 1977). COURTESY OF HERITAGE AUCTIONS (WWW.HA.COM).

Back to the Drawing Board JA: Was it hard for you to transition back to being an artist? CI: Very. I went to work for Warren at first, and then I went over to Marvel, and that’s where I got the tough stuff to do. I drew Star Wars, SpiderWoman, Nova, Ghost Rider, The Human Fly... I did a lot of stuff over there. JA: Was it harder for you physically or emotionally to going back to being just an artist? CI: Both. JA: In equal portions? CI: Yes. I had a studio in the city. Some advertising people I knew had a studio, and I rented a working space from them. JA: Did not working alone at that period help you? CI: It was okay. I didn’t care one way or another. I got my own room, and they wanted me to do some advertising art, which I did. The ad money was even better than cartooning.

(below) This panel comes from a story in Vampirella #62 (Aug. 1977) inked by Dick Giordano, who Carmine had brought to DC as an editor and artist from Charlton in 1968.

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JA: When you quit drawing to become a publisher, you sold Joe Kubert your drawing board and your files. CI: That’s true. Joe kept everything, so I bought another board. JA: And you had to work up your own morgue files again. CI: Yes, I had to do that myself. [laughs] By the way, I spoke to Joe recently, and he said, “I’ve still got the board.” I said, “You cheap bastard.” [laughter] JA: This was an interesting time, because when you came back you were still terrific. The layoff didn’t ruin you like it might have.

CI: I was okay, I guess. But don’t forget, I was still drawing. I was laying out covers all the time — rough drawings, but still…. JA: Once you became a freelancer again, did you try to reconnect with any of your old friends? CI: No. I kept away from everybody in the business. I withdrew completely. I felt lost. It hurt so deeply to lose that job, I just can’t tell you. JA: It must have been hard to tell your mother about it. CI: It was. I didn’t want to tell her. That was one of the hardest things I ever did. At some point, Jim Warren contacted me and asked me to work for him. I didn’t want to do it. He said, “Come on, work in the office. I’ll give you plenty of work.” So I did some stories for him, and he had some terrific people inking my stories: John Severin, Bernie Wrightson, Walt Simonson... I enjoyed working for Warren. The stories were more intense than the kind I had done before, and I liked the challenge. I had free rein to draw any way I wanted, which to me meant I could concentrate on design and storytelling. And it was interesting to see the kind of inks I got on my stories. They were all good, but Bernie Wrightson’s were my favorite. He really knocked himself out on my work. JA: Once you were no longer publisher, did you ever think again of being in an executive position? CI: No, enough was enough. I began working for Hanna-Barbera out in California, and Barbera wanted me to think about moving out there and becoming an assistant, because I had done some

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(above and following seven pages) After writing a few “Airboy” stories, Carmine was allowed to write and pencil several “Heap” stories. This one first appeared in Airboy Comics vol. 5, #5 (June 1948). COURTESY OF MIKE COSTA.