Interview with Wendy Brown

Interview - Wendy Brown

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Interview - Wendy Brown

https://www.e-ir.info/2017/04/25/interview/

E-INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, APR 25 2017

WendyBrownisClassof1936FirstProfessorofPoliticalScienceattheUniversityofCaliforniaBerkeley,whereshe isalsoaffiliatedwiththePrograminCriticalTheory.SheisauthorofManhoodandPolitics:AFeministReadingin PoliticalTheory (RowmanandLittlefield,1988), StatesofInjury:PowerandFreedominLateModernity (Princeton, 1995), PoliticsOutofHistory (Princeton,2001), Edgework:EssaysonKnowledgeandPolitics (Princeton,2005), RegulatingAversion:ToleranceintheAgeofEmpireandIdentity (Princeton,2006), WalledStates,Waning Sovereignty (Zone,2010), ThePowerofTolerance, withRainerForst(Columbia,2013),andUndoingtheDemos: Neoliberalism’s Stealth Revolution (Zone, 2015).

Where do you see the most exciting debates happening in the field of political theory?

Myowninterestsareintryingtofigureoutwhatkindofnovelpoliticalpowersandformationsaretakingshapeinthe contemporarypoliticalworld.Formesomeofthemostpressingdevelopmentsinvolveglobalization,financialisation andtechnocracy,aswellastheemergenceofpopulismsandauthoritarianismsinWesterndemocracies.Theseare problemsthatmanyofusareconcernedaboutatthemoment;adeepengagementwiththemrequiresmovingacross otherdisciplines,includingpoliticaltheory,butalsogeography,sociology,politicaleconomyandtheworkofother scholars working in critical theory grounded in the humanities.

Howhasthewayyouunderstandtheworldchangedovertime,andwhat(orwho)promptedthemost significant shifts in your thinking?

IcameofagepoliticallyduringtheendoftheVietnamWar,andinthemidstoftremendousupheavalgeneratedby politicalandsocialmovementsconcernedwithemancipation,fromthewomen’smovementtotheanti-Apartheid movement.MyinitialformationwasverymuchwithinaMarxisttradition,butinmystudyofpoliticaltheoryMarxnever wastheonlyreferent.Earlyon,Ifocusedonfeministtheoryandotherkindsofsocialtheorythatrevolvedaround questionsofidentity;andeventhenIwasdrawingfromNietzsche,Freud,theFrankfurtSchoolaswellasPlato, Aristotle, and a variety of other thinkers. I’ve never been a one-paradigm theorist.

Oneofthemostimportantintellectualinfluenceswasmygraduateschoolsupervisor,SheldonWolin.Theimportance ofhimtomyownthinkingwastwofold.First,hisoriginaltakeontheproblemofdemocracyisonethathasstayed withme.Democracyhereisnotsynonymouswithliberalism,norisiteverunderstoodasanalreadyrealizedstate.It isratheranunderstandingofdemocracyasradicalpossibility,ascarryingapotentialthatcanonlybeephemerally realizedthroughactualpoliticalpractices.Thisconceptionwasformativeformyownthinkingaboutdedemocratization,aboutthepotentialsandchallengestodifferentformsofdemocracy.Second,hewasan extraordinarilysubtleandprofoundreaderofhistoricalpoliticaltheory;hisreadingsofhistoricaltextswerealwaysat oncealerttocontextanddedicatedtoilluminatingsomethingaboutthepresent.Idon’tpretendtohavehisgiftfor readingpoliticaltheory,butIhavebeeninspiredbythatmove–turningtothehistoryofpoliticalthought,togreat thinkerswhoonedoesnotnecessarilyalignwithpolitically–toilluminateformsandpredicamentsofpowerinthe present.

In UndoingtheDemos:Neoliberalism’sStealthRevolution

Interview - Wendy Brown

threatens democracy. What exactly are the dangers of neoliberalism?

Neoliberalismisconventionallytreatedasasetofpolicies,suchasderegulationandprivatization,thatunleashthe forceofcapitalandrestricttherightsanddemandsoflabor.Allofthesethingsarepartofwhatactuallyexisting neoliberalismhascomprised.ButfromreadingFoucaultIhavealsoarrivedatthethesisthatneoliberalismmustalso beunderstoodasaformofgoverningrationality,anorderofreasonthatispartofwhatgovernseverything everywhereandalsoconstructsacertainkindof‘statism’.Neoliberalismdoesn’teliminatethestate,butproduces thestateincreasinglyasapowerthatservesthemarket,anditisanorderofreasonthatgovernsusthroughout society,cultureandprivatelife.Itdoesn’ttakemuchimaginationtonotetheextenttowhichhumanbeingsare increasinglyconstruedas homooeconomicus ortoseehowineverypartoftheirlivestheyarethinkingabout preserving or enhancing their capital value.

WhatIargueinthebookisthatoneofthemostimportanteffectsofneoliberalizationisthede-valuationof democracy,wheredemocracyisunderstoodasthepracticeofthepeoplerulingthemselves.Oncemarketvalue replacesthepoliticalvalueofdemocracy,boththemeaningandworthofpopularsovereignty,politicalequalityand politicallibertyarechallenged.ThisiswhyIwouldarguethattodayweseeanexplicitlyanti-democraticpopulism emergingfromneoliberalizedconditionsandpopulationsinso-calleddemocracies,populationsthatnolongerrealize why one might want democracy apart from the thin gruel of periodic elections.

WehavecertainlyseendemocracythreatenedintheU.S.,notonlywiththeelectionofDonaldTrumpbutalsowitha seriesofSupremeCourtdecisionsoverthepast25yearsthathaveessentiallyrecastdemocracyasamarketplace andunleashedthepowerofcapitaltodominatethismarketplace.ThefamousSupremeCourtdecisioncalled ‘CitizensUnited’gavecorporationsanunlimitedpowertocontributeandhencetodominateelectoralcampaigns,and this decision was based wholly on neoliberal reasoning.

Themoregeneralmovetoeliminatepublicgoods–especiallybyde-fundinganddivestingfrompublicandhigher education–canbeunderstoodasresultingfromade-valuationofhumanbeingsascitizenswhoarenowrendered insteadasindividualbitsofself-enhancinghumancapital.Educationthenceasestobeaboutculturinganeducated democracyanddemocracyceasestobeeducated.Again,welcometoourworldofproudlyignorantright-wing populisms.

Atthesametime,therehavebeenmanyleftretortstothesesameprocesses.We’veseenanumberofpopular resistancemovements,fromOccupytotheIndignadostoSyriza,andmanysmallermovementsaswell.These movementsgenerallyaimtoreclaimbothpopularpoliticalpowerandtheideaofpublicgoodsandpubicvalues–that is, conceptions of power and value opposed to reducing all the world to an unregulated market place.

How can we renew our understanding of democracy in light of these developments?

Thebigchallengeforpeoplewhocareaboutdemocracytodayistoreckonwiththemanyforcesthatarechallenging it,notjustneoliberalismbutalsoglobalizationandfinancialisation.First,abigquestionfordemocraticthinkersand activistsis:Wherecouldandshoulddemocracybetakingplace?Doesthenation-statecontinuetobeitsprimary site,orarepost-nationalconstellations,suchastheEU,moreappropriate?Whataboutsub-nationalvenues?With thenation-statelosingitsexclusivityonthesovereigntyquestion,weareenteringaninterregnum.Whatcomesafter thenation-statefordemocracy?Sovereigntyisnotfinished,andIdon’tagreewiththosewhoregarditastheenemy ofdemocracyoremancipation.Whothe“we”isin“wethepeopleruleourselves”isafoundationalquestionforany kindofdemocraticpractice.Itisfoundationaltohowapeoplerulesthemselves,towhatthedomainofthatruleis, andtohowthepeoplethemselvesaresignified.Hencemytheoreticalquarrelwiththosewhothinkthatsovereigntyis initselfsomekindofbadorwrongthatneedstobedoneawaywith.Whatisthejurisdiction,thedomainorthevenue fordemocracyatthistimeinhistory?Thatquestionisacrucialonefordemocratictheoryandpracticetoday.A secondquestionhastodowithdemocraticforms:liberaldemocracyorbourgeoisdemocracywasalwaysalimited formofdemocracy,alwaysimbricatedwithformsofclasspowerandotherordersofdomination.Moreover,itisnota veryrobustformofdemocracy;liberaldemocracyhasdeepstrainsofcitizenprivatisminitthatmitigateagainst

Interview - Wendy Brown

substantiverulebythepeople.Thequestionthereforeis:Mightitbepossibletodaytogeneratenewwaysofthinking aboutandpracticingpopularrulethatexceedthatform,tofindnewdemocraticvenues,placesandjurisdictionsthat are appropriate to this age?

Ratherthanthinkingaboutrenewingdemocracy,then,thequestionis:Whatnovelkindsofpracticesandspacesof democracyareappropriatetoanagethatisitselfnew?ThisisthequestionTocquevilleaskedintheearly19th century and it needs to be asked and answered again in the 21st century.

Onemorething.Therearealotofveryinterestingexperimentswithdemocracyemergingallovertheworldtoday, buttheyarenotnecessarilytranslatableacrossdifferenthistoriesandcultures.Animportantlessonfromthehistory ofcolonialismandimperialisminthepasttwocenturies,andfromthehistoryofdemocracyandcommunisminthe 20th century,isthatspecifichistories,culturesandtrajectoriesgeneratetheirownspecificpossibilitiesandformsfor popularrule,foremancipation,andforequality.Theyarenotgeneric.Andthisisexactlywhatiswrongwiththe analyticorso-callednormativetraditionofdemocratictheory,inthatitimaginesthatthereissomeahistorical,aculturalwayofthinkingaboutdemocraticprinciples,whereyoucanjustmovethepiecesaroundtogettheexact titrationofthoseprinciplesthatyouwant.Itimaginesthatyoucandosowithoutbeingresponsivetothespecificities ofpeoples’histories,attachments,cultures,regions,configurations,cast,class,gender,ethnicities…–butthatis absurd.That’swhypoliticaltheory–thatis,anyapproachtothinkingaboutdemocraticpossibilitiesorotherpossible formsofpower,ruleandtheirabsence,suchasanarchism–mustintegratetheseconcernswithanalertness,and responsivenesstocomplexhistories,cultures,political-economies,andsoforth.Normativedemocratictheoryisan academic version of all that is wrong with “regime change.”

In WalledStates,WaningSovereignty,youarguethatthenation-state’smonopolyoversovereigntyis compromisedbytransnationalflowsofcapitalandGod-sanctionedpoliticalviolence.Canyouelaborate on this?

Politicalsovereigntyisalwaysaspirationalratherthancomplete.Bydefinition,sovereigntyisapowerabovewhich thereisnootherpower.AsCarlSchmittremindsus,itcomesfromthenotionofGodassovereign,andthereis nothingaboveGod,otherwiseGodwouldn’tbeGod.Thisoriginalformulationhasbeensecularizedandappliedto statessincetheWestphalianperiod,whereabsolutesovereigntyisalwayspartialandunrealized,whichdoesnot mean that it’s not significant.

InthebookIarguethatsovereigntyatthesiteofthenation-stateisbeingchallengedbytransnationalflowsofall kindsofthings:people,goods,capital,butalsoideas,religions,andsoon.Ialsoarguethatsovereigntyischallenged andtosomedegreedisplacedasthesiteofinternationalrelationsbyformsofpoliticalviolence,likewhatwecall terrorism,butalsothemobilizationofcivilizationalviolencefromboththeWestandthenon-West.Againwefind ourselvesinaninterregnumwheresovereigntyisstillthedominanttermforunderstandingandorganizing internationalrelations,diplomacy,war,andsoon.Buttherearealsoanumberoffactorsandpowersthatare corrodingandchallengingsovereignty–fromthemassiveimmigrationofhumanbeings(thereare60millionrefugees intheworldtoday,andmanymorewhoarenotofficiallycountedasrefugees)tothetremendouscoercivepowerof financial and other forms of capital.

How to theoretically make sense of what you call ‘nation-state walling’?

Nation-statewallingsawaresurgenceinthepost1989-period,whichissignificantbecauseortheinternational celebrationofthefalloftheBerlinWall.Nation-statewallingneedstobeunderstoodasasymptomoferoding sovereignty,ratherthananexpressionofitsrobustness.Wallsoftenoperatetheatricallyyetastheater,areimportant stateresponsestopopulardespair,resentment,oranxietyaboutthiserodingsovereignty.Whichdoesnot necessarilymeanthattheyareeffectivemeansto‘keepout’perceivedthreats.Manywallsarebuilttointerdictdrugs, weaponry,terroristsorstreamsofimmigrants;generallyspeaking,however,wallsareineffectiveatthiskindof interdiction.ThestrongestexampleisthecurrentwallattheUS-Mexicanborder.Allthiswallhasdoneispush immigrantsintomoredangerousroutesforcrossing;ithascreatedahugeindustryforsmugglingmigrants,anda hugeworldofgangsandcriminalizationrelatedtodrugsmuggling.Ithasintensifiedundergroundindustriesand

Interview - Wendy Brown

produced higher death rates, but it has not contained the actual stream of drugs and migrants.

Everyoneknowsthat,forexample,themottoandchantthatbroughtTrumptopower(“BuildAWall!MakeMexico PayForIt!”)wasjustthat:amottoandachant.Thewallheproposesispreposterouslyexpensive,estimatedtocost somewherebetween30-40milliondollarspermileovera20yearperiodfora2000mileborder.Moreover,ifitwere built,itwouldinfactjustintensifyonceagainthedifficultyandcriminalityinvolvedinbringinggoodsthattheUS demands–cheaplaboranddrugs.TheUSdemandsbothand,untilthatdemandisaddressed,thesupplywillnotgo away.So,wallsforthemostparthaveoperatedasaresponsetoapopulationthatisincreasinglyunhappy,anxious and raging about the state, whose power has been reduced by the decline of sovereignty and by neoliberalization.

Irecentlywroteanewprefacetothisbookthataddressesthewallingphenomenonatthesoutheasternborderofthe EU,incountriessuchasHungaryandSerbia.Thereitisimportanttoseehowwallsactasdiversionsratherthan blockades,producingnewwaystopushimmigrantsinonedirectionoranother,butnottowhollykeepthemoutof Europe.ThusthesewallsbecomenegotiatingtoolswithintheEU,servingasimportantbargainingchipsforso-called ‘countriesoffirstlanding’and,moregenerally,fordealingwiththetwincrisisEuropeisnowfacing:the‘refugee crisis’ and ‘the finance crisis’.

What effects do walls have on the renegotiation of contemporary political agency?

Wallsproduceentirediscoursesandimaginariesofinsidersandoutsiders,ofdanger,criminalityandforeignnesson theoutside,andofafalseorfictionalhomogeneity,tranquility,sanctityandbelongingontheinside.Sotheydon’t simplyrespondtothexenophobiabutactuallygenerateandintensifyit.Wallingdemonizes(mostlybrown)outsiders andsanctifies(white)insiders.Oneofthewaystheoristsandcitizensconcernedwiththeseprocessescanrespond tothisinvolvesgeneratingcounterclaimsaboutrefugeesandimmigrantsratherthanacceptingthexenophobic rendition of them.

Butalsoimportantfortheoristsandactiviststodisruptisthenarrativeandtheimagethatwallingproducesonthe inside:fictionalandnostalgicimagesofauniformculture,ofwhiteness,ofa‘timewhenlifewasgood’butthatisnow threatenedbytheviciousorhungryhoardsfromwithout.Thatimagewhitewashesourownhungers,needsand violencebutalsoeliminatesourownhistoriesinplacesliketheUnitedStates.We,anationofimmigrants,destroyed our own native population. It is more than a little ironic for us to take up the flag of nativism now.

Finally,itisreallyimportantforacademicsandactiviststoaddressthoseanxieties,fears,andsentimentsthat producexenophobiaandthataregeneratingthedemandforwalling.Itisreallyimportantthatwedon’tsimply condemn that reactionary sentiment but try to understand, address, and transform it.

How precisely can this be done?

Ithinkthat,iftheleftcontinuestoengageinslogansfocusedmerelyonthe“correct”views,itwillnotsucceed.If thoseofuswhoobjecttoxenophobia,resurgentmasculinism,andattacksonimmigrantsjustretortwithourown viewsorslogans,we’renotgoingtogetanywhere.Wereallyneedtotrytounderstandandworkwiththesefears, anxieties,attachmentsandlossesthathavegeneratedsuchdarksentimentstoday. Weneedtogetatsuchextreme fearsaboutone’sownlife,predicament,village,andexistencethathavegeneratedandhavethemselvesbeen mobilized by opportunistic right-wing politicians.

Ithinkthewaytogetoutofthe“politicalcorrectness”chargeistostopbeingpoliticallycorrectandinsteadtoengage inseriousanalysis.Theworldisattheedgeofdisaster;thiswealreadyknow.Weknowthisnotjustbecauseof recentelections,butalsobecauseofclimatechange,becauseoftherisingphenomenonofterrorisminallkindsof placesandspaces;thesearenotsimplyrelatedtoIslambuttotheunleashingofdarkimpulsesandenergiesby individuals,groupsandarangeofotherforces.We’rereallyatriskofsomethinglikeapocalypse.Ifwesimplykeep onrepeatingwhatwehavedone,we’renotgoingtogetanywhere.Wemustaddresstheforces,analyticallyand organizationally, that are bringing us to this edge.

Interview - Wendy Brown

Thelefthasabandonedtheverytaskitunderstooditselftohaveforcenturies,whichiseducatingandorganizingthe peopleforemancipation.Insteadithasincreasinglycenteredonslightlyclosedacademic,journalisticandactivist circleswherewerepeattooneanotherwhatwebelievein,andcondemnthoseweoppose.That’sfauxleftactivism andisnotleftorganizing.Weneedtofindawaytoorganize!Weneedtobethinkingabouthowtoreachpeopleand how to reach power.

Whatisthestatusofcriticaltheorytodayandwhatcanitofferinlightofthepreviouslydiscussed issues?

Criticaltheoryforme,properlyunderstood,involvesaneffortatapprehendingthisworld.Sucheffortscancomefrom alotofdifferenttraditionsandsources.Iwouldnotconfinecriticaltheorytooneschoolorlineage.Criticaltheory needstobeunderstoodassomethingthatsubjectstocritiqueboththeapproachesandnormsofmainstream disciplinesandthepowersandnormsthatorganizeourlives.Bycritique,Idon’tmeanrejection,ofcourse,butan attempttocriticallyunderstandthepremisesandthepowersthatarecirculatinginexistingknowledgeandhuman practices.

Criticaltheoryis,initsrichestandbroadestsense,orientedtoapprehendingtheworldratherthangeneratingnew littlebitsofacademicknowledgeforthesakeofotheracademics.Criticaltheorymustalwaysbereflexive,criticalof itself, and willing to rethink the premises and approaches it uses to make sense of the world.

Recently,post-structuralismhasbeenchargedwithhavingsignificantlycontributedtothepost-truth worldandenablingtheriseoffigureslikeDonaldTrump.Howcancriticaltheorybemadeattractiveto people who reject the premises of post-structuralism?

Itisveryfunnytoimaginethatpost-structuralismwassopowerfulandinfluentialthatitproducedDonaldTrump’s orientationtowardstruth.Iwishitweretruethatpost-structuralismhadthatmuchpower,asweactuallycouldhave producedabetterworldanditwouldhavenothingtodowithapost-truthworld.What’sreallybeingsaidhere?Those peoplewhoneverlikedorfullyunderstoodthesechallengestofoundationaltruths––havenowfounda correspondencebetweentheunsettlingoftruth’sfoundationatthephilosophicallevelandthelackofinterestin facticityamongacertaincurrentofpoliticiansandjournalists.Correspondenceisnotaveryinterestingclaimunless you can figure out why that correspondence might be there.

I’mstillenoughofaMarxisttounderstandpost-structuralismashavingemergedwhenthefoundationsofpolities, economies,societiesandtheirtruthswerebeginningtoshake.Thegoldstandardwasfloating(ascurrencieswere nolongertiedtoanythingsecure);authenticitywascomingintoquestioninpopularandmainstreamculture;religion hadbeenrenderednotasabsolutetruthbutasaprivate,relativelyarbitrarychoice;andtheeconomyasawholewas becomingincreasinglydetachedfromproductsandproduction.Post-structuralismemergedwithinanorderinwhich truthisalreadyunmooredinallkindsofspacesandplaces.Poststructuralismarticulatesthisataphilosophicallevel. However,tomeoneofthemostimportantpoliticalimplicationsthatcomeoutofpost-structuralismisthis:thetruths thatorganizehumansocietiesaredeterminedbyhumanbeings.TheirfoundationcannotbesoughtinGod,nature,or tradition,orhistory.Andiftheyaregoingtobedemocratictruths,thentheymustcomefromhumandeliberation. Poststructuralistinsightintothehumanlyfashionedcharacterofgoverningtruthsdoesnotmeanit’simpossibleto settlehowweoughttolivetogether.Itsimplymeansthatacrucialpartofdemocracyisdeterminingthistogether, deliberately and intentionally.

Thisleavesonematteruntouched,whichisthequestionoffactualtruth.Isclimatechangerealorisitbogus?What aboutscientificfacticity?Post-structuralistthoughtneverarguedagainstfacticity;rather,itarguesthatfactsare alwaysdiscursivelyorganizedandinterpreted.Post-structuralists(suchasDerrida,Foucaultandothers)never claimedthateverythingwassimplyinvented.Theirclaimisamoreimportantandinterestingone:humanbeings cannotsimplynametruthwithoutdoingsothroughlanguage,andlanguageisnotjustdescriptiveornominative,but alwaysinterpretive.Wedescribeclimatechangeornarrateanexperienceinaparticularway;weincludeandomit, weframeandweemphasize;wemetaphorizeandcompare.Allofthismakespost-structuralistaccountsoftruth extremelyimportanttoourmoment.Becausewhatpost-structuralismhelpsustodoistoshowhowcertaintruths

Interview - Wendy Brown

cometogovernandhowothersaredispatched;howtruthisgeneratedandproduced,andhowfactsareinterpreted. Nothing could be more important right now.

What is the most important advice you could give to young scholars of political theory?

Itiscrucialtohangontothequestions,theconcerns,andtheintereststhatbroughtyouintothefieldandtoresist beingclaimedbytheprofessionalnormsandrequirements.Forthesewillpullyouawayfromthedrivingintellectual and political concerns that brought you to do political theory in the first place.

Thegreatestdangerforscholarstodayliesinhowacademia,likeeveryotherbusiness,isincreasinglycontouredby concernswithcompetitivepositioningandvalueaccordingtoaseriesofmetricsthathavenothingtodowiththinking. Henceincreasingnumbersofacademics,especiallyyoungacademics,findthemselvesengagedinworkandin entrepreneurialintellectualactivity,innetworkingandinpositioningthathaslittletodowithseriousintellectualand politicalquestions,andespeciallywithquestionsaboutourworld.Ifyou’regoingtobecaughtupinthiskindofthing, youmightaswellgointoinvestmentbankingorsomethinglucrative.You’reneverreallygoingtogetthatmuchoutof thecompetitivepositioningandrecognitioninacademia,andyou’renevergoingtogetoffthehamsterwheelof trying.Thegratificationisinthethinking,teaching,writing,ideas,andthegenuinelymeaningful–asopposedto“high asset value” – connections with others.